I have 3 questions for rebuilding the rear end first would you use the new Neoprene outer seals or the old style seals and what type of grease goes in the rear end and is there something else you would use on the gasket set when putting it together? Thanks guys
For inner seals, you definitely want the neoprene version. The old style leather seals have a bad rep because of the potential for damage to the axle shaft. With the neoprene inner seals in place, rear axle oil be contained and the old style felt outer seal will be sufficient to contain bearing grease from the Hyatts. I think the neoprene outer seals are overkill, especially at fifty bucks a pair.
The rear axle takes 600w oil available from the parts dealers, but some say 80w 140 gear oil works just as well. The grease cups for the bearings use regular wheel bearing grease.
Lots of guys brag on how wonderful The Right Stuff is, but for me it's the wrong stuff. I'm slow, and it sets up too fast for me. I use good old non-hardening Permatex that's been around since Hector was a pup.
Sounds like good advice to me.
Hector is a very, very, very old dog now. He was a pup a long, long, long time ago. Only Geezers who have been around for a long, long, long time know that expression.
In answer to your question, I wouldn't use 600. Use modern 85-140 or similar. I don't use the gasket too often, I use the copper type of gasket maker. Make sure the inside is CLEAN and run a bead in so it will form a seal as well as putting it on the parting line. Easier than a gasket. If you want to use a gasket, stand the rear end up on one end, use a couple feeler gauges to hold the sections apart a few thousandths and wet the gasket and pull it in. Far easier than trying to get it to fit with the rear end laying on the bench.
The original Ford axle seals work just fine. The problem is, when they got reproduced, they didn't set the angle of the tangs correctly, and they swiftly ate through the leather into the axle shaft. To fix this problem, bend each tang back, and slide it over an axle. If this is done, they will not eat into the axle shaft. Another seal that really works, and has been around forever is the heavy felt inner axle seals. They are a bitch to get in, but you will have no leaks.
So does the new inner neoprene seal replace the old three piece leather retainer, spring washer and steel washer
Yes. Here Steve Jelf shows how to put them in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfxWPsF4KhQ&list=UUFVx528ORtpDgCPJXbFCA6w
Do most leaks are around the driver side ?
Ok the felt washers how many do i need and where do they go? Looking at the Mac book in the picture shows one with the part # T2510c where does it go? Thanks
One on each side. Look at the video Roger posted. It shows installation of seals, bearings, felts, and caps.
Common sense works pretty well on this stuff too.
Looking through a 1915 reprint parts book the outer axles are protected with felts and a cap to retain the felt. The cap is part number 2510 a felt is inserted in the cap part #2510B then on the outer side of the hub there is a hub felt part #2829.
In 1923 and consequent years thereafter the cap and it's felt remained part # 2510 and 2510B respectively, however #2829 hub felt was eliminated and amalgamated with the front and then became part #2829 front and rear hub felt.
Mac's catalog shows a felt part #2510C that doesn't exist anywhere that I can find. Mac's also shows part # 2809 as front and rear hub felt washer but you have to go to the front wheel parts to find it. Langs lists #2510 cap,#2510B felt and #2809 front and rear felts in addition they offer variable methods of seals and dust protection. Therefore to assemble the outer components the bearing sleeve is inserted, bearing inserted the #2510 cap with #2510B felt and #2510A washer as an assembly is installed. An outer dust felt the same part # as the front wheel #2809 is lastly inserted over the axle then the wheel. There were no other seals just dust felts. Not to say that these cannot be improved to day but that is all there was. The Ford differential housings were filled with 1.5 pounds of #2 grease, however I would recommend a slightly lighter weight such as #00,0,1 or 1.5 it should be non-flowing so that it will not migrate past the felts on to the rear brakes. Ford differential housings were designed for grease and not a flowing oil as differentials are today. Almost all "T" differential housings have oil in them and there is about a dozen different opinions as to the weight and grade of lubricant to be used. Grease was what was used originally. I disassembled an original 1926 differential and it had grease in it as well as many others have found housings with grease and mistaken it for congealed oil.
Steve is right, if you use a good inner seal like our neoprene seals you don't need a fancy outer seal. The original Ford seal works just fine because it only has to seal grease not oil. The problem with the old leather seals was that the metal tangs of the retaining spring were too long. They extended out over the leather and rubbed on the axle causing damage to the axle. The fix was to shorten the tangs so that they sit on top of the leather and push it against the axle for a good seal.
Can STP be used?
STP can be used, and some folks do.
There are Horseless Carriage Club guys that use it straight in model T rear ends.
STP is not a lubricant, it is an oil thickener.
I suppose if it gets between two parts and keeps them from rubbing together you can call it a lube, same as water. Or sand.
A Trear end should use 140 gear oil in warm weather and 90 in a Ruckstel. Or 85-140 in both, all year around.
I seen no reason to use it.
I guess I am a bit pickey with terminolgy. We regularly use the term "rear axle seals". Throughout the early parts books the term "seal" is not used the term "felt washer" is the standard term. The felts were intended to keep dust out and not to "seal" the grease in. All cars today have "seals" to keep the oil in. If oil was used the felts were not effective. In the current catalogs, Langs, Macks, Snyders etc they all refer to these felts as "seals" which they wern't and were never designed as a "seal" except as a dust protector.
Sorry I think that is wrong. The outer rear axle felts that were held on by the pressed steel covers were seals to keep the grease in and the inner felts were to keep the oil from migrating into the roller bearings and out the end of the axle. At one time there was a dust seal that went between the rear hub and the seal cover. That one, which is the same as the front dust seal, was there to keep the dust out.
Whether you want to call it a felt or seal, it's there to do it's job, keep the grease in the dirt out.
From a yahoo search:
I used to hear that phrase a lot when I was younger so I guess I am giving away my age. Anyway, you roused my curiosity so I did a little research and I am now quoting from the website below:
"it was in fashion at about the time that Hector really was just a
pup. It began to appear in North American newspapers around 1906
and almost immediately became a catchphrase that later spread
around the English-speaking world.
There's quite a variety of ideas behind it. "Hector" seems to
have been a fairly common name for dogs at the time. This was
borrowed from the name of the hero of the Trojan War, the son of
Priam and Hecuba, who became a symbol of the consummate warrior.
By the early twentieth century, "pup" was also well established
as a mildly dismissive name for a young person, particularly an
inexperienced beginner. So Hector was a pup a very long time ago indeed."
I think we all should revive this sort of thing.
Part Number 2508 is the Rear Hub Dust Seal felt. It was placed between the Rear Wheel hub and the 2510 Outer Seal Cap. The other felts are all grease seals and do not work well with oil.
I have an original 1923 parts book and 2508 is listed as Axle Shaft R.B. 4 required. 2510 is listed as Axle housing cap 2 required. 2510A is listed as Axle outer roller bearing steel washer,
2510B is listed as axle outer roller bearing felt washer. 2809 is listed as Front and rear hub felt washer. Looking at the purpose of these felts it would appear that they were designed to protect the outer roller bearing from dust and dirt. The outer roller bearing is lubricated by means of a grease cup independent of the grease in the housing. If grease was used in the housing there would be nothing to seal as it would not migrate down the axle housing to atmosphere, however oil would. The limited amount of grease available at the outer roller bearing wouldn't require much sealing because there wouldn't be more than an ounce or two at any time. What would be in the housing would not affect the outer rollers that is why they are independently greased through the grease cups.
Ok looking at the drawing i see where the felt washer T2510B goes in the cap under the steel washer but the one i don't get is T2510C where on the axle does it go?
That one goes on the axle on the outboard side of the inner roller bearing and sleeve. I assume it was there to keep oil from getting down the axle and out to the outer roller bearing and possibly keep enough oil by the inner bearing to provide adequate lubrication. I realize that the T2511C set up keeps the oil from getting out to the outer bearing but the inner felt prevents a massive flow of oil getting there in the first place and can probably be omitted if you use the later seals. I continue to use it because I am concerned that too much oil getting to the outer seal will lower the oil level in the differential enough to create a problem. I fill the rear with just enough oil for the ring gear to dip into the sump and distribute the oil so I do not have a lot to play with. I think most people over fill the rear and that is what causes most of the trouble. I may be wrong but so far it hasn't hurt!
There is no such part as 2510C. Felt 2510B goes inside the cap then there is a hub felt that is the same as the front hub part number 2809 that fits between the hub and the cap to apply slight pressure to hold it firm in place. Mack's, Snyder's and Lang's all address these slightly differently. In the 20s there was a method proposed to assist in preventing oil leakage. This method involved installing two felts on the axle inside next to the differential and one additional felt on the outer portion of the axle inside the outer roller bearing. This method was billed as an accessory and they were installed when the rearend was disassembled. Normally this is not required. One of the parts books says stuff the felts in the housing other comments are that these are a bear to put in. Firstly these additional three felts are not necessary and were only an accessory where the incorrect lubrication was used or where oil was leaking from the engine down the shaft into the housing and out the axle caps. It was a stop-gap measure for other problems. To add to some of the confusion I don't see a 2511C or any 2511 series numbers in the parts books, they must be Mack's own number series. From all the early literature I can find only grease was used in Ford rear ends. Maby there is additional information that differs from that, the 1926 original books I have state grease only. If the inner and outer roller bearings and ball thrust were substantially greased at assembly and 1.5 pounds of grease was initially installed that unit should operate for years trouble free. The outer rollers require minor care and require that the grease cups be turned in occasionally. It is also recommended that the felts be changed regularly these are minor duties that pay great dividends.
David, It is true that the 2510C felt seal does not appear in the Ford parts books. However, it has been available as the poor mans inner bearing seal for at least 50 years. In later years the leather inner seals were offered as an improvement. Today we have the neoprene seals. All of the rear axle felts are seals except for 2508 which is a dust seal.
As stated above the 2510C was an accessory from the day. They are easier to install when the rear end is apart. But they can be installed from the outside using a pipe that will fit over the axle and inside the housing tube. It takes some work and I tape up the axle threads and taper in case a misplaced hammer blow on the installation pipe should cause it strike the axle. I have seen literature where they recommended 3 of the felts per side. They fit aprox i/2 way between the inner and outer bearings. The fit very tight to the axle and very tight to the inner walls of the housing. Since they fit very tight to the housing they will act as a "dam" to keep the rear end grease from migrating to the outside. One thing I have not seen mentioned is the old "Woodworth Grease Retainers" They were an oil return spring that fit around the axles. There was a "left winding" and a "right winding" when driving forward they were supposed to "screw the oil back to the center. I think they were reproduced by Snyders several years ago. Im not sure if they still make them or not. I have found a couple original sets in old rear ends, but not sure if they really work or not. If they are used you can not install the 2510C accessory felts ...
The three inner felts, two against the differential gears and one against the outer bearing on the inside were band-aid measures for other problems. Yes they have been around for more likely 90 years and that is how long the units have been leaking they were a stop-gap measure then and still are. If too much grease, too light of grease, flowing oil or engine oil has entered the housing, then a leak can occur, it was a quick fix to jam the three felts into the housing to stop the leak without taking the entire drive assembly apart to repair it. The housings were intended for 1.5 pounds of grease and if a flowing lubricant is used leaks will continue to occur.
With the installation of said felts inside the housing, do the felts turn with the axle or is the felt held firm and the axle turns inside the felt?
When the 1.5 pounds of grease is put in the housing, after about 1000 miles a slight amount should be added to maintain a minimum of 1.5 pounds of working lube. If oil is used it will eventually find its way through the felts. How many members out there right now are repairing leakey rear axles? I have seen several rear wheels soaked in oil many times, owners are continuously trying to repair these problem with various "seals" and they still leak. If all four roller bearings and ball thrust bearing are thoroughly greased when assembled and 1.5 pounds of grease is used leaks will not occur and the differential will operate for decades .
If you use grease, how do the inner bearings ever get any more grease than when they were originally assembled? The outers have grease cups to re-lube them. Why don't the inners?
Hal -- The inner bearings get splashed with rear end lube.
If the correct grease is used say NLGI #1 or #1.5 that is creamy like whipped cream will splash sufficiently to maintain lubrication on the inner rollers and will not flow down the axle tubes. Heavy general purpose grease will only cut a path through the grease and cause problems. Any grease that stays firm when peaked up like a pyramid is too stiff, the grease should just slump but not free flow.