Model S versus Model T Race

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Model S versus Model T Race
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 04:31 pm:

Yesterday morning two automobiles left the Piquette Plant on a cross country race. The end is to be on the East Cast near New York. Car & Driver magazine is sponsoring a race between a Tesla Model S and a a Ford Model T. More information will be available from Car & Driver after the race is finished.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 05:27 pm:

Cool. It will all depend on time to recharge every 200 miles for the S. That's a real Turtle and Hare race. Is it a stock T?

I hope the S doesn't get beat too badly. I have 20 shares of Tesla I bought in July for $130, and it's now $183.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 06:04 pm:

Fun, more info on the Model T and driver, please :-)

Ralph, sell while you're still ahead, Tesla and electric cars may well have some kind of future, but the stock evaluation is vastly inflated right now and will burst some day, just like the dot.com bubble - internet companies certainly had and has a great future - just not at the inflated value they had back in '99/'00.. http://einvestingforbeginners.com/2013/07/03/tesla-is-not-a-buy-right-now/#more- 2090


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 06:08 pm:

But Roger, it'll be a whole new lease on life for electric cars when they get graphene batteries! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 06:09 pm:

I heard this discussed at Hershey. It's a red Model T, and the driver is..... and the driver is.....

Well, Car & Driver will let everyone know soon..... I think. :-)

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 07:25 pm:

I have some knowledge of Tesla and the deal they did with Toyota. Sell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:41 am:

What? Royce is sour on electric cars?
Who could have predicted that...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:16 am:

Funny Dan, but I can't see where Royce said that


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:35 am:

How "stock" is the T? I mean, if it's Tom Carnegie in a Montana 500 T that's a lot different than a true bone-stock T.

I'd be really interested in the rules for the race as well as what roads were used.

Also, same questions as Ricks - how far can the S go on 1 charge and how long does it take to charge? Theoretically a T in good working condition should be able to go at least 200 miles between fill ups getting 20+ mpg and a 10 gallon tank, with allowances for wind and hills. I just can't imagine the S can go fast enough on any highway or interstate to make up for however long it takes to charge vs. the T just getting fuel at a station. At first glance it seems like the T will beat the brakes off the S.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 11:17 am:

I just looked up information on the Tesla "S",362 HP on the base motor,300 mile range,45 minutes to recharge, 80 mph, another review said four hours to recharge, so pick the review you want.if it is truly 300 miles it should beat the T with no problem. Just my opinion, but the normal negative people will respond.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 11:22 am:

This is fascinating to me. I just checked out Tesla's website and it appears that a big factor on charging time is where the S is able to hook up to charge.

Type of Outlet/Volts / Amps Kilowatts Miles of Range per Hour of Charge
Standard Outlet 110 V / 12 A 1.4 kW 3
RVs and Campsites 240 V / 40 A 10 kW 29
Welding Equipment 240 V / 40 A 10 kW 29
Older Dryers 240 V / 24 A 5.8 kW 17
Newer Dryers 240 V / 24 A 5.8 kW 17

So if the S hooks at up at an RV site with a big 240v/40a outlet, they'll be able to get a lot more bang for their buck time-wise. They can go 29 miles on 1 hour of charge.

Depending on the route they take, its about 650 miles from Piquette avenue to New York City. If the T manages even a meager average of 30 mph, it'll only take just under 22 hours to get there. Lets say the S manages to average 75 mph - it'll go 300 miles in 4 hours and need to recharge for 10, drive another 4 hours, and then charge 2 hours, and drive the last hour or so for a total of 20 hours. The only way this race is even close is if the S uses the interstate and recharges at an RV station and the T uses back roads and crawls along slowly even for a T.

If the T manages to average just 35 mph, game over, T gets there in under 19 hours and has time for an oil change and some brass polish before watching the S creep in on low battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 11:29 am:

Ok, been exploring the website some more. The real issue will be the charging - they have a "supercharger" that can charge the car completely in less than an hour, but it's the equivalent of running 2 driers at your house at the same time to do it. If the S uses the interstate and hooks up to one of those, then yeah, it won't be close. It'll be like a regular modern car racing a T, kind of silly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 11:32 am:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manufacturer Tesla Motors
Production 2012present
Model years 2013
Assembly United States: Fremont, California (Tesla Factory)
Class Full-size
Body style 5-door liftback
Layout Rear-motor, rear-wheel drive
Electric motor 310 kW (416 bhp), 600 Nm (443 ftlb), Three-phase AC induction motor
Transmission 1-speed fixed gear (9.73:1)
Battery 60 or 85 kWh lithium ion[1]
Electric range 85 kWh
265 mi (426 km) (EPA)
300 mi (480 km) (Tesla Motors)
310 mi (500 km) (NEDC)
60 kWh
208 mi (335 km) (EPA)
230 mi (370 km) (Tesla Motors)
233 mi (375 km) (NEDC)

Plug-in charging 11 kW 85-265 V onboard charger for 1ϕ 40A or 3ϕ 16A [2] on IEC Type 2 inlet[3]
Optional "Twin Charger" for 22 kW for 1ϕ 80A or 3ϕ 32A[2]
Optional Supercharger for 100 kW DC offboard charging, adapters for domestic AC sockets (110-240V)

Wheelbase 2,959 mm (116.5 in)
Length 4,976 mm (195.9 in)
Width 1,963 mm (77.3 in)
Height 1,435 mm (56.5 in)
Curb weight 2,108 kg (4,647.3 lb)
Designer Franz von Holzhausen

The Tesla Model S is a full-sized electric four-door hatchback produced by Tesla Motors. First shown to the public at the 2009 Frankfurt Motor Show as a prototype, retail deliveries started in the United States in June 2012.[4] The Model S was released in Europe in early August 2013, and the first deliveries took place in Norway, Switzerland and the Netherlands.[5]

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) official range for the Model S Performance model equipped with an 85 kWh lithium-ion battery pack is 265 miles (426 km), topping the Tesla Roadster and making the Model S the electric car with the greatest range available in the market.[6][7][8] The EPA range for the model with the 60 kWh battery is 208 mi (335 km).[9] EPA's energy consumption is rated at 237.5 Wh per kilometre (38 kWh/100 mi) for a combined fuel economy of 89 miles per gallon gasoline equivalent (2.64 L/100 km).[6][10] Tesla had also scheduled the release of a base model with a smaller 40 kWh battery expected to deliver a range of 160 miles (260 km) but decided against this entry-level model, citing low demand.[11]

Tesla allocated the first 1,000 sedans off the production line to a Signature and Signature Performance limited edition, equipped with the 85 kWh battery pack, and priced in the U.S. at US$95,400 and US$105,400 respectively, before any applicable U.S. federal and local government tax credits and incentives.[12][13] The base Model S starts at US$69,900 with a 60 kWh battery pack up to US$79,900 with the 85 kWh pack before any government subsidies.[6][12] Since its introduction, cumulative sales in North America reached 12,700 units through June 2013, with most units delivered in the U.S.[14] The Model S ranked as the top selling plug-in electric car in North America during the first quarter of 2013 with 4,900 cars sold, ahead of the Chevrolet Volt (4,421) and the Nissan Leaf (3,695).[15] The Model S was the top selling car in Norway in September 2013, representing a market share of 5.1% of all the new cars sold in the country during this month, and becoming the first electric car to top the sales ranking in any country.[16][17][18]

The Tesla Model S has won numerous awards and recognition such as the 2013 World Green Car of the Year, 2013 Motor Trend Car of the Year, Automobile Magazine's 2013 Car of the Year, Time Magazine Best 25 Inventions of the Year 2012 award, Consumer Reports' top-scoring car ever, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration NHTSA top ranked 5 star safety rating.
--------------

If a person had bought $100K in TSLA stock a year ago instead of a car, he would have $500K in stock today.

I didn't see a spec for charge time, but it could equal road time. I predict a close race.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 11:40 am:

Good work, Seth. Considering the charge time, the S should be driven at best economy speed, or somewhere between that and speed limit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:07 pm:

Keep in mind when you are talking batteries, you have to consider how fat your are discharging it. The rated amp-hours on most batteries is calculated over a 20 hour period. That is, a 100 amp-hr batteries will provide 5 amps for 20 hours. If you want to get more amps out of the battery you will get a lot less than the rated amp-hrs.

I suspect the Tesla will be averaging closer to 30 MPH to stretch its range to the maximum. Recharge time will be the key factor in this race.

Go David!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:32 pm:

The race is over. I have a reliable report that the T was 1 hour slower but traveled 100 miles further. This is probably due to the different roads they used.

The T was owned and driven by David Liepelt who works at The Henry Ford, who alternated driving with 1 other person, non-stop for the whole race. The T is a '15 and is stock.

Does anyone else have any additional information on this?

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 12:55 pm:

Sounds like the T won to me!! Only an hour behind despite traveling 100 miles further? Shoot. Betcha if they race back on the same road it won't be close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Paulsen - McPherson, KS on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 01:19 pm:

I was the other T driver. All of the previous information is basically correct. We drove about 60 miles farther than the Tesla. I believe we covered about 775 miles in 23 1/2 hours. We drove back roads as much as possible. We stopped for fuel and a copy minor mechanical issues. It is basically a stock, well-balanced 1915 Touring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 01:20 pm:

Yeh, both won. Good journalism.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 01:22 pm:

Congratulations, Chris! What were your couple of minor mechanical issues?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 06:19 pm:

Yeah! Chris P!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 06:24 pm:

775 miles in a one day period - probably a world's record. Average speed, about 33 mph. Not too bad!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 06:57 pm:

Sounds like a great contest to be involved with. Good job, and thanks for posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 07:17 pm:

Not to detract from this story but in 1926 Cannonball Baker went coast to coast in a model T i think in less than 5 days without releif at the wheel! Story is in Tin Lizzie by Stern but i can't find a copy.Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 07:44 pm:

"1929 Horsepower and efficiency gains enable an (aircooled) Franklin in the hands of Cannon Ball Baker to set a new coast to coast record of 69 hours."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 08:58 pm:

Wonder what the winner would be if the race was between a 1915 Model T and a 2013 Ford Focus? As usual, a total embarrassment for the electric car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 09:53 pm:

Chris - Please tell us...Did you enjoy it?

Would you do it again?

Anything else interesting about the race?

Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Paulsen - McPherson, KS on Thursday, October 17, 2013 - 10:48 pm:

It was absolutely fantastic! Scary at times, but a lot of fun. Certainly not for everyone nor every car, but a great experience.

We suffered a dead battery-the charger from the magneto couldn't keep up with the lights at night. The other problem was fuel related. We thought it was a bit of dirt, but it ended up being gravity pressure. At the speeds we were running, approximately 5 gallons or less were not enough. We had to keep more than that in the tank. We were glad to have to stop a little more often throughout the night.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 12:36 am:

No magneto lights? I know, you wouldn't want them blowing out at speed.
It sounds like fun to me. It has been a few years, but I used to drive my T at night a lot. I put a white tire on the back of my coupe as a spare so hopefully I will start driving more and at night again soon. White tires and wide white wall tires look like "glow-in-the-dark doughnuts" floating down the road. I suspect some flashing LED lights would be better seen however.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


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