I have what I assume to be a late 11 early 12 engine pan where metal beneath the mounting arms is profusely cracked and deformed. Someone had previously attempted to braze these damages, as evident by the abundance of brass slopped everywhere. We attempted to anneal this damaged area and weld up the cracks without success. When mig-welding with steel rod, the cracks immediately reappeared in the original locations once the weld was ground down. A local weld supply house recommended #308 stainless rod, which welded fine, but when this was ground down, the cracks now appeared along-side the new welds. Much appreciation for any thoughts. I didn't post photos here because these hairline fractures are indistinguishable in the photos.
I'm not a good enough welder to comment on that, but "brass slopped all over" happened at the factory.
William, this may not help with fixing your problem, but the presence of brazing material all around the area may not indicate that brazing repairs have been undertaken.
The ears on the pan are riveted and sweated on with brazing material. The two parts are heated in this operation and the bronze runs all over the place during the operation. What you may have is just a messy job from the factory.
I once cut the cracked sides out of a pan and welded in two new side pieces from a damaged pan with the ears still attached. The welding went well, but when I had finished the pan was 3/8" shorter than it should have been!!!!!
Allan from down under.
William, don't think you are the Lone Ranger out there. I had similar issues with a 1910 pan. The areas inside the pan where the ears attach with rivets had many cracks. Like you I brazed the inside area but the cracks reappeared. My solution was to
1. coat the inside with JB Weld to prevent oil leaks,
2. cosmetically braze the ears to the pan from the outside around the edges of the ears.
The pan looks good and has held up for 3 or 4 years without a problem. I still have oil leaks but not from the cracks.
Thanks all. Factory brazing quality is known, this job is a mess and definitely not OEM. Factory did not braze the arm rivets from the outside. Oil leaks are the least of this pan's issues...the metal under the arms is brittle and can be shattered like ceramic. JB weld might cover this damage, but I doubt the arms could support the motor's weight. I'm considering cutting the visible damage out and welding new in, but no idea how extensive this brittleness is. Would be my luck to get it all together and have it crack around the new patch.
I was also concerned whether brazing the ears to the pan sides would support the engine. But it does, you have a lot of braze area for support. If you are concerned about strength, you can add a pan brace. I did for a while because I had concerns, but I removed it a few years ago without incident.
Frankly, I don't see how welding a patch would be any stronger than brazing the ear to the pan.
Besides a patch may create a real problem getting the pan straight and aligned.
It looks like these severely damaged areas are restricted to the pan area where the arms were directly in contact with the pan sides...lets call these 4x4 inch square areas. If I fasten the arms and braze them to this known unstructurable area, what says this 4x4 area will not simple break loose? When I say it's fragile like ceramic, I mean these areas are nearly that weak. We had cracks in other locations on this pan that welded up fine, but these arm mounting areas not only failed, they failed immediately. I'll keep fiddling with it till we come up with something, but will not rely on brazing or JB weld. A restored early motor is simply too costly to build-up and then risk dropping on the street. BTW, this pan also had previous belly crush damage suggesting that someone may have previously learned this lesson the hard way.
I know it's scarce, and therefore costly, but you may be ahead of the game to look for another one in better shape.
the pan in the pix is not a 11 or 12 so junk it an get a good one. charley
oops.i don't read as good as I should sometimes!sorry charley
I'm not counting on this for my current 12 Touring project, if referring to that. Just hate to throw rare stuff like this
away if it can be salvaged.
NP Charley....you got one of these early 7 rivet pan arms laying around by any chance?
Hi again, I just want to make sure we are on the same page. The fix I suggest does not strengthen the cracked area, agreed. It attaches the pan arm by brazing it to areas of the pan surrounding the cracks. That way, you are not relying on rivets in a weakened area. Since you are securing the arm to good metal, the pan is stabilized. The JB Weld over the cracks is simply to stop oil leaks, nothing more.
BTW, it is typical that early pans have cracking around the rivets. Brazing the arms has long been done as a fix to save them. I suspect the brittleness you speak of comes from working the metal in that area, also common. Mine was as well. Good luck.
I had to do some repaires on the pan from my 26 tudor after a piece of broken piston tried to go through it. i couldn't believe how strong the metal is, i thought i'd be able to hammer and dolly the steel back into shape, not a chance in hell of that happening i could clearly see this wasn't going to work. i had to use a press. and it still wanted to spring back.
I know it's been said that henry insisted on using low carbon steel. so after not having much luck welding up the tear with my mig, i treated it like chromeoly and tig welded it.
So i suppose if you wanted to save it you could take it to someone that could cut out and tig in some thin plate chromeoly steel, if done right it would be a strong seamless repair.
One must be very careful doing any welding near where any brazing was done. If almost any brass gets into the molten steel, that steel will become extremely brittle and probably will crack very near the original crack. Once the steel becomes contaminated, about all you can do is cut a slightly larger area out and weld in new material, or bridge the damage with good steel and braze it thoroughly into place.
Early pans are thinner material to begin with. They seem to have more issues with brittle metal cracks. I would guess they were not as thoroughly annealed between the stamping processes resulting in more work-hardening than the later pans were. If one was improperly welded (repaired?) before, this could make all those conditions worse. For myself, I would repair such a pan with a few gussets and bridges brazed in not-too-obvious places. Under many conditions, braze is stronger than weld.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
I think Wayne is on the right track here regarding the brittleness issues. Anytime steel is brazed, the bronze alloys with the steel making it VERY difficult, if not impossible to weld. Adding the 308 Stainless rod may have done more harm than good by adding more alloys into the mix also. Sometimes, if there is very little bronze, you MAY get by by grinding out the area after welding, and try welding it again. It's a crap shoot though. It's much better if you can replace the contaminated area with new steel. JMHO. Dave
Thanks Wayne...the scenario you describe here sounds plausible. We ground a load of braze off the area where the arms were mounted but did not see obvious evidence that previous weld work was done...that doesn't mean there wasn't previous work...looks like the guy who did the brazing did a hack job, so I'd be surprised if his welding quality was any better. We'll try welding in a patch panel, and if that doesn't work, then may haul it to the next swap meet.
Could you take a later narrow nose pan and mount the 7 rivet ears and a new tea cup on.
Some good news the morning...The welder I'm working with was researching steel welding rod options when he came across a product from Nassau called "Apollo B". For reasons unknown, this rod appears to be doing the job. A minor problem is that while he had some of this rod on hand, the Nassau Co. is no longer in business, and we haven't been able to determine whether there may be a modern equivalent out there. Assuming this continues working in a positive direction, we will restore the damaged pan sides, then add #16ga reinforcement plates to the interior side for the added strength. Question now is whether to braze around these reinforcement plates and the interior rivets to make this oil tight, or leave it bare like the late 12 pan is made? I'm inclined to think that brazing the inside shut reduces leak potential and adds arm strength...thoughts?
That is something I have been considering doing. I have a 1914-15 "long nose" pan that I have been wanting to try to convert. It would be easy to get the repro tea cup and braze it on. As for the seven rivet ears, I don't know of any repop source for these. Does anyone know of any source for these, or has anyone ever done a conversion on a later 3-rivet type? Still, there are other differences. The support casting at the end (that bolts against the drive shaft tube) is different. I would like to hear from anyone who has done this and photos would be nice.
I'm not aware that the early arms were reproduced. The later style have a few key differences but look like they can be morphed into the earlier style. An interesting change after 1912 is that the vertical offset off the arm location changed where this early step contacts the brim of the pan...the later style has a 1/4" gap here. I can only speculate that this is to prevent the arm from potentially bending the brim as the result of frame twisting.
The original brazing done by Dodge Brothers and later, Ford, was extremely sloppy. I bet they had a pot of molten braze material and a steel paddle to apply it with after ladle was used to pour into the general vicinity. Wish I had taken pictures of my '13 pan restoration, it sounds similar to yours.
Hi: Sounds like you have 2 problems. One is metal contamination from the brass. The other is metal fatigue from years of vibration. The metal fatigue is probably isolated to the area around the ears. The metal contamination is from the brass and is very very hard to get rid of. There are some rods a little more tolerant of the brass but they are a poor substitute from using good rod and good metal. If it was mine I would salvage your arms. Then bolt the pan or a (good known pan to build jig) down to a steel table jig that would hold it securely in position. Then cut out the bad area from your pan and replace it with a good piece from a junk pan. Make it big enough to stay clear of any brass on the donor piece. Replace your arms with new rivets. That should give you a good pan. I have over 35 years experience as a Boilermaker certified welder. From experience I can tell you there is NO way to fix fatigued or "rotten" metal. You can fight it and finally get it somewhat fixed but it will always fail later down the road.
I agree with Ronnie about fatigued and old metal. If your not in a big hurry look for another pan.
But if you want to get your engine together I would get a good 3 dip pan and convert it.
Being a maintenance welder for many years and having to weld fixtures , old boiler fittings and whatever on a low school budget, you eventually have to replace 'old iron'.
On the other hand JB weld will work on cracked areas and stop the leaks. In some situations it really does work and cracks in pans is one of them.