Please help identify this engine - from 1912 Model T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Please help identify this engine - from 1912 Model T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin Simon Elliott on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 08:04 am:

Hi All,

I have received a photo of the engine from my late grandfather's rather famous Model T, and it has me puzzled.

The numbers above the water inlet are:

Engine noV0270597762

Made in Canada
1912 engine number
It is registered with SAVVA as No 212 and dated 1912, but of course this engine number doesn't seem to mean anything.

Perhaps a police number was stamped on, but then, we should be able to make out the underlying C-number. It doesnt seem to be there.

The casting number as on my 1913 is also different on this motor. Mine is cast in large numbers, where this is a round cast next to the inlet water pipe bolt 1912 casting number

What other pictures do you need to help properly identify the engine?

Thanks,
Justin in South Africa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 08:55 am:

Justin,
Based upon the casting date, your engine was cast on December 15, 1921. It should have two valve covers and machined to accept a generator. It is clear the VIN has been re-stamped with a non-Ford number.
Hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:10 am:

I agree with Russ, casting date is 12-15-21 reading the circle using the abnormal US date method where the month is first, then the day, followed by the year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin Simon Elliott on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:45 am:

Thanks very much. I'm trying to find out more about this car, and this definitely helps.

There are other blocks lying in storage. Now we will go have a look at them and see if any are from 1912..

Thanks guys,
Justin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 12:06 pm:

Canada did not cast their own blocks until May 1913.
In 1912 the block would be Made in USA but usually that marking would be ground off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 04:00 pm:

Our late 1912 T has its original engine the casting date is aug 1912 it does not have the made in USA ground off it was never there, it is clean. The head on the other hand does say made in the USA Engine is 146808.The car is built in Ontario Canada


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 05:01 pm:

I need someone to chime in here, but Canada did not cast their own blocks until about 1919 or 1920. I can't remember the exact date, but is well after WW1.

The ground off blocks are late 1912 & 1913 when Henry decided to put "Made in USA" on everything. Then the blocks coming to Canada simply had that blanked out at casting. To show what I mean here is 1913 C1651 with the ground off "Made in USA"


And here is a 1916 motor C57648 cast 1st March 1916 where beneath the "Ford" script is clean.

I think Henry missed the boat here. They should of cast "Ford - Made in Canada but allowed in USA"!!! Heh, heh...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 05:17 pm:

David,
Ford of Canada started producing motors May 20,1913.My 1913 Canadian built in Ford, Ontario Model T touring's motor still has the Made in USA on it.I guess they forgot to grind it off.
Scott Kramer
Woodstock,Ontario,
Canada


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 05:59 pm:

Yes, they started assembling motors in May 1913 using imported US components from across the lake.

They did not cast their own blocks until 1919 or 1920. This is when the cast "Made in Canada" first appears below the Ford script on the side of the engine block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 07:03 pm:

I think we had a little controversy over this last time it was mentioned about the casting etc, although we never really established an publishing date of the booklet
'The Story of the Ford in Canada'
Basically it's contents is pre 1913, mentioning machine shop expansion by 3 times,1912, one machine milling 12 blocks at a time, others of drilling holes and reaming, in the block castings etc, machining pistons, new heat treatment building doing the steel parts and cranks.
As for the actual casting of the blocks them selves, I don't know but I do know by 1915/16 they don't have any chisel or grinding marks removing the made in USA.
From this, I can't see that all would be sent over the river for Detroit plant to assemble!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 07:10 pm:

I think we had a little controversy over this last time it was mentioned about the casting etc, although we never really established an publishing date of the booklet
'The Story of the Ford in Canada'
Basically it's contents is pre 1913, mentioning machine shop expansion by 3 times,1912, one machine milling 12 blocks at a time, others of drilling holes and reaming, in the block castings etc, machining pistons, new heat treatment building doing the steel parts and cranks.
From this, I can't see that all would be sent over the river to the Detroit plant for engine assemble!
As for the actual casting of the blocks them selves, I don't know, but I do know by 1915/16 they don't have any chisel or grinding marks removing the made in USA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 07:12 pm:

Don't know why that happened!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Wednesday, October 30, 2013 - 06:06 pm:

C134636 Cast October 29, 1917 & C137133 Cast November 10 1917 are the earliest confirmed Made in Canada blocks I have seen.

There are some earlier 16 Canadian blocks recorded but not confirmed.

Some of grinding off of Made in USA is very clean and hard to see while others are easy to see where it is ground off.

This is the earliest one I have photograph C166371 Cast Aug 15 1918 (jumbled up and reversed in pattern)



thanks

Mark


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