An F.W.D. Model T Racer, A Poor Manís Miller

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: An F.W.D. Model T Racer, A Poor Manís Miller
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By david greenlees on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 07:13 am:



We have always wondered about this car, who built, who owned it, where was it raced? The photo has enough clues so that maybe the location can possibly be pieced together or hopefully one of our readers may know more about this ďIngenuity SpecialĒ.

It is modeled on a front-drive Miller and is based on Model T components. It features a Model T engine and transmission turned around and hooked up to the center section of a T differential. Like the Miller, it is equipped with a tubular front axle possibly from an early car set on its side. Two types of U-joints are used for the half-shafts and the hubs and spindles are unknown components.

It appears to be equipped with an OHV racing head and based on the locations of the header and the down-draft Winfield carburetor, it may have been a Frontnac rocker-arm unit. It is also on a set of professional grade racing wire wheels and has rear wheel brakes on a simple tube axle. Both ends of the car are sprung on quarter-elliptic springs. See another photo of this unique car after a crash and learn more and also view 100's of other Model T photos @ http://theoldmotor.com/?p=65858


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John W. Oder - Houston, Texas on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 08:53 am:

With the very flat "eared" knock off nuts, I would says these could be Rudge Whitworths. Don't know about this rig, but the FWD Millers used 72mm hub size on the front and 52mm on the back.

Thousands of these "foreign" wheels were made for the American market by Standard Roller Bearing in Philadelphia under license


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 09:17 am:

David,
Great racer! I've seen the photo before, and thought someone identified where the car ran.
Thanks for posting,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 10:46 am:

What I find intriguing is that this one might actually have decent handling as it certainly appears that the king pin actually seems to line up with both the centre line of the U joint but also the centre line of the tire patch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 10:51 am:

I'm pretty sure that front axle is Franklin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 11:42 am:

Interesting that the car has a downdraft carburetor. I wonder when it was built ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 11:54 am:

It didn't have that carb before 1930, Frank. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 01:21 pm:

There was a previous discussion last year regarding that photo. I tried to pinpoint the year based on the Minnesota plate on the LaSalle in background. The year is fuzzy but the paint scheme (dark over light) provides some clues. See below:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/327933.html?1355633544


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 06:32 pm:

The carburetor pictured is I believe a Winfield Model N, the larger companion model to the M. It is in the 1928 Winfield catalog as a retrofit replacement for 1927 model year trucks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 07:49 pm:

Layden, I have been led to believe the M was made only in an updraft, and the first downdrat Winfield was the S. Do you know where to see the 1928 catalog?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 08:42 pm:

Ricks, The model M was indeed an updraft only carb. It was made in 3 sizes A B and C.
The N started as an updraft only but was quickly changed to a design where the bowl bolted to the throat section with 4 small bolts in a square pattern. The inter-connections are concentric so the throat can be rotated every 90 degrees around making for up down or side-draft. The N came in 3 sizes D E and F.
It is the S that causes all the confusion, a different bowl is required for up or down draft due to side by side passages in the connection between bowl and throat. The low and intermediate passages get switched up otherwise, hope that is clear ( probably as clear as mud).
I do not know of a Winfield catalog on line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 10:21 pm:

Thanks, Layden. There you go, Frank. Mebbe you can now prove downdrafts were available in the T era.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil McKay on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:06 am:

Does this FWD car really contain any Model T related components? We are told so at http://theoldmotor.com/?p=65858 but there is nothing immediately obvious to me that the statement is true.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:18 am:

The differential looks Model T to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:18 am:

The three exhaust ports mean a Frontenac head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Magee on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:33 am:

According to Don Radbruch in his book "Dirt Track Auto Racing", this car was driven by Robert Seitzer in 1931. It was owned by Don Voge who was a race promoter in Minnesota. No other information is provided.

The Radbruch book is a good resource for any one interested in pre-War US dirt track racing. Not much technical info but lot's of great photos of T based and other racing cars. I am amazed at how many DO Fronty's show up. Where have they all gone?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:38 am:

Doesn't Frontenac exhaust on the passenger side, Ralph ? My BB RAJO dumps out on the driver's side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 11:51 am:

The engine is installed backwards with the transmission in front. You can see the hogshead in front of the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 02:38 pm:

Thanks for clearing that up !


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