Interesting Canadian casting date

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Interesting Canadian casting date
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 04:42 am:

Just been replacing an 1927 engine and noticed this casting date 12/0/29, the old block has the letter E for year as normal for a C block but the donor block has as per photo's, normal Ford logo etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Olsen on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 04:56 am:

I thought that T engines were made until about 1941 or so in the US. Don't know about Canada, though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 05:16 am:

I thought so too Chris, but I have a reference to a spare part block as having no markings


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:24 am:

That 0 might be a D, if the block has two bolt holes in the rear for a 1926 transmission ears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:57 am:

Kerry,

Based on the information John Page posted at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/325787.html?1354635515 most of the 1923 and later Canadian cast blocks would have the casting date with the following order:



Note some were a little more evenly spaced around the circle.

Applying that to the casting date you have it would read: Dec 29, and if E was 1927 “O” would be 1937 or so if they had continued the same lettering sequence and “IF” that is the letter “O” rather than the number “0”

However – in my opinion, it is extremely unlikely that Ford USA or Ford Canada would have continued casting Model T blocks past 1930 and probably discontinued casting them earlier than that. Yes, Ford USA and likely Ford Canada continued to assemble Model T Engines past the last Model T produced on their assembly line. But those would have been assembled from blocks that had already been cast and machined. In 1931 Ford USA only produced 995 Model T engines compared to the typical 4700 engines produced daily during the last seven months of normal production (and higher numbers produced daily prior to that) (ref Bruce McCalley “Model T Ford” page 535-536). To cast and then machine small batches of blocks would not be cost effective at all. Since they stopped putting casting dates on USA engine blocks during the early 1920s we cannot verify that on the USA engine blocks. But does anyone know of a Canadian engine block with a casting date beyond “E” for 1927?

Note based on the serial number which is a little hard for me to read – the number is 7?9777. Depending on what the second number is, the date it was machined would be different. But according to the serial number listing below, all of the 7xx,xxx engines should have been the 1926-27 style blocks. Note the 1926 year model, Model T Touring that crossed Canada started the trip on Sep 8, 1925. (ref page 45 James C. Mays “Ford and Canada”). The following two pages of Canadian Ford Engine Serial numbers was prepared Jan, 1987 by Herman L. Smith (RIP) the Historical Consultant for Ford Motor Company of Canada, Limited. Sandra Notarianni the Ford Motor Company Historical Consultant sent it to Steven Miller on Aug 28, 2001 (cover letter available but not posted as it has Steven’s address listed). Steven kindly scanned it and sent it me. I believe it is a fairly representative list and we have posted it before.






Based on the above, I believe it is likely that the number “0” was accidently used instead of the letter that should have been used to indicate the year the casting was made. Note the 1926 model year engines were being cast in late 1925 so they would have used a “C” for those. And the blocks cast in 1926 would have used the “D”. It is easy to see how a “0” could have accidently gotten into the letter “C” or “D” bin and was used by mistake. If the second digit is a 7 then it would be less likely that a Zero would be used in place of the letter “E” but it might still have been accidentally used. Or it is also possible that the block was cast in 1926, machined at some point, but not assembled until 1927.

Please let us know what the engine serial number reads – at least the second digit, and if it looks like it has or has not been changed in the past. Also please confirm if the block does or does not have the boss and the two holes to hold the transmission ear bolts.

I need to do some other work – but I thoroughly enjoy the discussions. Thank you to all who share on the message boards, e-mail, magazine articles, show their Fords, and/or drive their Fords as part of the living history.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 01:15 pm:

Kerry Van Ekeren and Hap Tucker:

In 1939 I was taking auto mechanics in High School. Some people were still driving Model Ts.
My neighbor bought a real nice 1926 sedan for $20.00. It had a rod out and he asked me to help him fix the motor. When we got the motor torn down I noticed an old T motor sitting next to a wall in the barn we were working in. con rods at that time in the catalogs were .90 So we decided to tear the rods out of the old motor and see if we could find one that fit. We found one that we thought would work so used it. Shortly after that my neighbor moved about 200 miles away and the T ran faultlessly.

I remember that at that time Montgomery Word, Western Auto and Sears, Roebuck catalogues were full of Motel T parts. This included SHORT BLOCKS. I now wonder if they were rebuilt blocks or new ones. I would think that by 1939 T motors would be so used up that the Wards, Western Auto and Sears would be selling a tremendous amount of the short blocks.

I have a couple of 1923 Catalogs (sears and Western Auto) that have tons of T parts but no short blocks.

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 01:17 pm:

blocks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 08:56 pm:

Hap, yes the block has the rear boss and engine # is C719777, I don't believe it has been altered just rusty.
Wrong letter, I'm sure, but if meant to be a D is the question, the block that came out of it is engine # C717411, so around the same mth, but a casting date 8 days earlier, 21/12/E so now the question is, year casting dates not strictly by calendar year? if it was then the old block is Dec 1927 making it a 1928 model T or the E started back in late 1926?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 09:05 pm:

Dave,

I don't think I have access to any late 1930's catalogs. I did check a copy of the 1925 Western Auto catalog and they had "new" blocks 3000C for starter equipped cars for $22.45. Note the 1922 Ford Price List of part had their new Ford block listed for $25 and the 1926 Ford Price List of Parts listed the 1926 style with the boss on the back for the transmission to bolt up to at $20. All that to say, Western Auto and others apparently had access to "New" blocks. I wonder if they were Ford produced or independently produced?

I did not see any rebuilt short blocks in the 1925 Western Auto catalog, but they may be there and I just didn't keep looking.

I remember in the 1960s Montgomery Ward had rebuilt Model A Ford engines, short blocks, transmissions etc. And Obsolete Ford in California offered 1932 Model B short blocks with all new Ford parts as they had found a stash of Model B cylinder blocks and cranks and would assemble you a short block from all new parts. And J.C. Whitney was still offering reground T cranks and rods etc.

So I would think if someone could look in one of the 1938 or so catalogs they could let us know for sure. But clearly they would have been offering all sorts of parts. [Although as you noted -- many folks were obtaining parts from worn out Ts for free.]

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 09:23 am:

Kerry,

This can get confusing so I want to make a summary of what I understand so far and a few questions I hope you can provide additional answers about.

Both of the engines we are discussing are the 1926-27 style with the boss on the back for the transmission to bolt up to.

The engine you removed from the car was
C717411 and it has a casting date on it of 12 21 E indicating Dec 21, 1927 [21 Dec 1927] casting.
Please confirm it was removed from a 1927 car. Please confirm that it is the same serial number that is stamped on the frame of the car or if not – please let us know what number is stamped on the frame. Also please let us know if the block has the hole for the throttle rod between the cylinders or not.

The replacement engine you plan to use has
C719777 and the casting date on it of 12 29 0 for Dec 29, year has the wrong number/letter.

Comparing that to the dates from the production records – which I am assuming [that can cause problems sometimes] are the engine production records as the cars were produced at various branches etc. And in the USA the engine production records are what Bruce used for his listing of USA serial numbers after the shipping document information was no longer available. If anyone knows for sure if those Canadian numbers are from the engine production logs, please let us know also.

From Herman Smith’s serial number chart above we have:

Dec 31, 1926 [31 Dec 1926] last serial number 714988

Jan 31, 1927 [31 Jan 1927] last serial number 721805

So both of those engine numbers 717411 and 719777 would have most likely been originally stamped onto an engine block during Jan 1927. One exception would have been if either engine block was a replacement block. In that case the block would have been shipped without a serial number. When the block was used, it would have the serial number of the original car stamped into the serial pad, if the work was accomplished by Ford dealer that followed the Ford USA guidance.

Bruce compiled a listing of Canadian serial numbers and casting dates that were published in the “Vintage Ford” as well as his book and his CD. (Used by permission from the “Vintage Ford.”) Below are the numbers related to this discussion. The “A” in the right column indicates the block was in Australia at that date. The C it was located in Canada and NZ it was located in New Zealand. [We would welcome addition block numbers, serial numbers, and location. South Africa and other countries were also supplied by Ford of Canada and would have C-serial number engines. Many but not all the C-serial number engines had casting dates on the block.] Note also that Bruce had the serial numbers moved into the end of 1926 on his list and Herman Smith listed them as Jan 1927 on his list. Key point is it would have been around the end of 1926 and beginning of 1927 for both serial numbers.






Note that the casting dates do not carefully track with the serial numbers. In fact the 718309 serial number that is clearly after Jan 1927 has a casting date of 8-6-D for Aug 6, 1926 which supports the other indications that engines were not first in – first out when machined and assembled in Canada.

But notice there are no casting dates older than 4-25-E for Mar 25, 1927 in that listing. In the original listing there was a block without a serial number with a casting date of 3-1-F located in Canada. But Bruce omitted that from his CD version of the listing. Perhaps it was considered an “E” with the lower leg left off? Or perhaps he had another reason for omitting it?

Based on the above, I suspect that the engine C717411 with the casting date on it of 12 21 E should have really had a “D” instead of an “E” just like the “0” on the other engine should have been a “D.” But there is also the slim chance it was a replacement block that was actually cast Dec 21, 1927 and then stamped with the original engine number C717411. It clearly was NOT cast Dec 21, 1927 and stamped with C717411 and assembled into a new Model T coming off the assembly line.

How others can help with this question:

Please send us additional C serial numbers and casting dates from the 1926-1927 time frame.

Thank you all for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 01:05 pm:

That same casting date should also be on the head and the top of the transmission cover, if all parts relate to the same engine. One or the other might have a better defined date or solve the mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 11, 2013 - 04:09 pm:

Sorry for delay Hap, been pouring babbit, a bit time consuming, yes to you summary, can't find a frame # on either side of frame rails, the car presented as a 27, wire wheels and head light bar but no known history so could be a bitts'a and as James has mentioned, a D is on the hogs and head.


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