Additional front wishbone

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Additional front wishbone
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:28 pm:

My 15 touring has no wishbone below the axle. It does have an aftermarket angle iron unit, that to me, appears to have all the rigidity of a wet napkin.

So this summer I picked up an original below axle wishbone and clamping attachment (shown below). The below axle wishbone is attached at the perches but resting on a support at the rear.



OK you knew this was coming ;o) the lower wishbone when lifted to the clamping position hits the draglink (but not by much). Left side and right side views shown.

One obvious answer is to bend the lower wishbone but it is tubing and will probably kink and reduce its strength. Note also how the steering arms on the spindles appear to be bent downwards.



Here's another picture of the right steering arm which shows more clearly the downward bend.



So here's the questions:

1. Rather than bend the lower wishbone to clear, can I bend the steering arms just slightly upwards raising the draglink and clearing the lower wishbone ?

2. Are the steering arms supposed to be bent downward, or is this the result of some kind of prior accident? I would guess the down angle to be about 15 degrees.

3. Finally, how do you use the rear clamp? The upper holes look (are) too small to slide the lower wishbone through. Also the lower wishbone would have to be cut so it was two separate pieces to slide into the upper holes shown in the top picture. Do I have a suitable bracket?

Lots of questions, I know ..... but any help greatly appreciated!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:50 pm:

Your bracket looks like a good one. Whether or not it used later type lower wishbone arms, I don't know. But to use them, it looks to me like they need to be cut and threaded, or cut and a threaded rod welded into the arms. They must match the threaded holes in the bracket.
Next, and the first thing I noticed, is that the arm, bolted and/or held onto the bottom of the axle, is not sitting flat to the axle. Whether best bent hot or cold can be debated for days. But it should be bent down very close to the end under the axle to make it sit flat against the axle. And then bent back up a short ways back of that end till it lines up with the bracket when clamped under the early over-the-axle wishbone.
Those are my first thoughts. Others?
Got to get back outside to my project.
Drive carefully, and enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:51 pm:

Why are there so many lock washers on your wishbone cap? Why aren't the bolts safety wired in a figure 8 fashion? The lower one you show is not bolted up tight. The clamp you show is not for that application,rather it also should have it's own arms toward the front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 06:57 pm:

The reason that the wishbone cap stud nuts need to be safety wired is that if you just put cotter pins on the nuts, the studs can still unscrew out of the wishbone socket on the bottom of the engine pan.

When I got my 1923 touring/pickup this past June, I found that its wishbone nuts had been cotter pinned and one of the studs had backed out several turns.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:03 pm:

Jack

Extra lock washers because the springs were to short to properly compress.

Bolts are saftey wired, connecting wire runs behind where you can't see it.

What lower one?

Clamp is an old aftermarket accessory. Probably not currently made. Got it at Model T Haven and he assured me it was to clamp lower wishbone to upper. What else could it possible be for?

Thanks
Bud


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:16 pm:

Jack and Mark have a good eye catching the Safety Wire. That can be a very bad day..

You think those lock washers are springs holding the ball tight?

Is your clamp threaded for a pipe? I've seen some that had the front end of the pipe flattened and a hole drilled thru? Check the threads with a nipple or tap to see if they're pipe threads.
.
I made a clamp bracket to hold my lower and didn't have any interference issues


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:18 pm:

What looks like threads in the bracket may only be "gripping-ribs" to better secure the cut-off wishbone rods.

Looks like those holes are blind-bottom sockets, which makes sense given that the major force on the reinforcing wishbone will be front-to-back and push into those sockets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:33 pm:

Chris, that is what I thought first but there isn't any clamping so maybe you thought of rearward force is correct. Just don't do a lot of backing up.
It doesn't look like pipe threads, too fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:39 pm:

Looks like the single bolt provides the clamping action on the cut off ends of the added lower arms. If you look closely at the fitting you will that there are slots on the bolt side of the sockets.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:43 pm:

Here is a larger photo that shows the slots next to the bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard Tomlinson on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 07:47 pm:

I have the same setup. It originally came with two arms (that were threaded on the end) that ran up to the front axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 08:09 pm:

Here is your problem in a nutshell: you are trying to marry two parts that were not designed to be mated together.

It appears that you are trying to use the aftermarket clamp with a later stock Ford wishbone.

Your aftermarket clamp would have come with two threaded radius rods when it was new. The threaded radius rods would have dog legs in them to clear the tie rod. Your clamp is not for use with a later Ford stock lower style wishbone.

Below is a similar but correct set up that I have in my parts stash. The rods are threaded so they can be adjusted in order to maintain proper axle caster.

Note that on this aftermarket brace, especially in the third picture, there is a dog leg in the radius rods near the point where they attach to the axle. These are the radius rods that came with the clamp, not a later stock Ford wishbone.

1

2

3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 09:13 pm:

Eric & Howard

I think y'all hit the nail on the head. At first I thought the "threaded" part of the clamp were "gripping ribs" as Chris suggested, but the opening would still be too small for an original lower wishbone.

I guess I'll have to fabricate the lower arms myself. Should'nt be too hard. Be nice to know what the threads are though(for the lower arms).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 10:06 pm:

BTW

Just checked, the threads are 1/2" NPT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 10:21 pm:

Bud,I noticed your tie rod is away to far into the bracket on right side. Suggest you recheck toe in on the axle before you try driving car to far. I have about 6-7 of those front below axle braces,and they are all different. I do have one similar to the part you show. They used an extra nut on the rods to set adjustment on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 10:52 pm:

Here's a photo of the axle end attachments on the accessory wishbone on our 1915 roadster. The rods are solid not hollow. They bolt up and allow for adjustment of the axle pitch. The rods also clear the tie rod without a dip in them as would be if they bolted directly under the axle like many other accessory wishbones. I'll take better pictures tomorrow when I can roll the car out and show the whole setup.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 10:59 pm:

I have one on my Runabout. I have to keep a close check on the bottom nut since the perch "bolt" is too short to install the cotter key. Also note the white stain from the soluble oil that leaks from an external block crack caused by running plain water in zero degree weather (circa 1945 in Wisconsin).




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:11 pm:

Jay, We are having an "awful waffle" seminar in my shop Saturday at 9. Milt Webb is going to take a differential apart and make a Ruckstell out it. We'll have waffles (a special recipe), ham, real maple syrup, fruit, coffee and juice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:18 pm:

Hal, Sounds great! Would that be next Saturday?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Saturday, November 09, 2013 - 11:24 pm:

Yep


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 12:28 am:

Bud, Jack Daron noticed the tie rod threaded way too far through the yoke on the end. You have a mixture of parts there. The correct tie rod to hook up the straight spindle arms has the ball forged as part of the yoke. Yours is the later tie rod with the adjustment made at the ball end. Perhaps this is why it goes so far through the yoke.

Hope this helps,

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 10:02 am:

Those waffles sound good!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 10:18 am:

Thank you all for your concern that the tie rod is threaded to far into the yoke.

I did not know it was the incorrect tie rod - good to know! I will look for the correct one.

I have checked toe in recently and its spot on.

Also checked for possibility of steering going over centre. Not happening.

Cheers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard Tomlinson on Sunday, November 10, 2013 - 11:25 am:

Hal,

You might consider using the castellated nut from the pinion end of a driveshaft for the bottoms of your perches. They are shorter and would allow the use of a cotter pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 02:12 am:

Royce, I'll send the recipe if U want it.

Howard, Thanks for thatů.I'll do it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 09:02 am:

Lower wishbones are plentiful. Mine had the ball end cut off, and then it was welded to the upper one. Best done at least tack welded in car with weight on wheels, after checking caster.

It's been trouble-free for 50-100K miles.

I use the earlier tie rod with ball centered vertically on tie rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, November 12, 2013 - 01:29 pm:

Bud,

Since you have the accessory APCO style spring loaded wishbone ball cap, I suggest you remove the long studs and all those lock washers and instead, install two shorter hex head bolts with drilled heads for safety wire. I believe the two lower bolts on your 4th main ball cap are the style that should work as these should have the wire holes in their heads.


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