By the looks of the side lamps, I'd say very early 1915.
Are there fourteen of them? Seven per boxcar?
Thanks for the photo, Jay.
: ^ )
I am sure I have read it before, but what was the average profit for the dealer? What did Ford charge the dealer, then how much was the retail price marked up? And did Ford dictate the final sale price and thus dealer profit per unit?
I'll bet someone will tell us who Dealer D-120 was and what that car on the right is.
Studebaker six I believe. Dan H may tell us more. But he may be busy. I hear he just committed to buy another car! (A well-known T I hear)
Thank you Jay! But I don't see my runabout in there?
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Head-on views are often heard to tell between fours and sixes, but I think that's a 1915 four, Wayne (small wheels).
Good eye on the lamps, Keith. But I don't think that car was part of the delivery. The "new" ones don't have any cowl lamps or fenders, and that one is fully dressed and has a license plate.
I would say early 15 on the car with the dealer tag. The cowl lights have the side opening door.
Great picture! The Touring with the dealer plates does have many early features. The headlamps are the fork mount type, slightly larger than the later '15 headlamps. Also note the four rivet front fender brackets, which changed to three around the summer of '15.
I agree the 1915 Model T Ford with the license plate probably did not come with the load of new Ts in the background. It also has some badges on the radiator (wish I could read what they said) indicating it has been around a little longer. But the paint is still great so it is not a 5 year old car either.
Royce I agree with you that the four bolt fender bracket and what appears to be the larger headlamps would also indicate earlier rather than late 1915.
But I think the headlamps are post mounted rather than fork mounted. Below is photo from page 20 Sep-Oct 1989 “Vintage Ford” used by permission to promote our hobby and club. Note the offset the fork bracket has and how it would move the light away from the centerline of the car. Also how the light is NOT centered over the mounting hole that the bracket fits into but is offset away from the centerline of the car.
Below is a 1915 Centerdoor with the fork mounted headlamps. Note the red line is drawn through the mounting hole in the fender bracket and it does not come close to the center of the lamp.
Below is a photo of a very early 1915 roadster with posted mounted lamps. Notice how the line coming up from the hole in the fender bracket goes very closely through the center of the lamps. I believe the post is centered on the lamps but if the lamps are turned, or the photo is at a slight angle etc. there will be a little off set. The original photo is from the Ford Archives so I am not posting that. The complete photo can be see on page 21 Jul-Aug 1989 “Vintage Ford” or Bruce’s Book page 201. From both of those sources we also see the same car from a different angle so we know those are post mounted headlamps. And I believe they are the large lens early style but the camera may have distorted that some.
Below is the photo from the 1915s being unloaded. I rotated it just a little to make the light stems perpendicular to the bottom of the screen.
There is not a large difference in the photos, but I think they are stem mounted in the photo of the cars being unloaded. A higher resolution photo would probably answer the question for certain one way or the other.
Royce, you also mentioned that the four rivet front fender mount changed to the more standard three rivet mount around the summer of 1915. Bruce used the phrase “During early 1915 the [front] fender bracket was changed and was now attached with just three rivets.” And the MTFCI Judging Guidelines sixth edition state “Mounting bracket changed to three-rivet design” under page 1 of the 1915 guidelines on the front fenders. I am hoping we can better document when that change began and approximately how much overlap during regular production there was when both styles may have been used. In addition to your experience of looking at original 1915s, have you been able to find any documentation to help us better establish a change over date range?
Again thanks for your observations and inputs. I believe by working together over the next twenty years [some of us will have to turn it over to those reaming before we get to 20 years] we will be able to better document many of the items Bruce had not yet seen any official documentation or solid proof of when or in some case even “if” something occurred.
Hap l9l5 cut off
Are there records of dealers? If so how was
Dealer 0-120 and where was he located? If
there is a list of dealers is Vergil White or
Whites Garage in NH listed?
That badge on the left side of the radiator looks very much like the "Celebrated FORD Automobiles" sign in the other thread.
Could it be?
That's the first time I've seen diamond-tufted backrests on a 1915 Ford.
seats are tufted but not diamonded.charley
Look closely........ the early "big" 1915 headlights had what I believe are different forks than the normal ones used in 1913 - 14.
Rootlieb sells their three rivet front fenders as "1915" and those are the ones you see the most of today, because they have been selling them for decades. Nonetheless, when you see unrestored 1915's you see four rivet fender brackets, not three.
I'm sure that the very early 15's had 4-rivet front fenders, but my March of '15 Touring has 3. There's no indication that they were not original to the car. It may be one of those cases where some assembly plants used up the ones they had before making the change, so there's no set date for it.
I think it's obvious the "Dealer" car is a very early '15, as evidenced by the 4-rivet front fenders, the E&J #6 cowl lamps, and the large headlights. The "fat" tufting in the seat backs also suggests that. And note that it appears to have a cable going to a speedometer, as do the two "new" cars next to it, in the front of the picture. The car at the rear on the left side of the picture also appears to have "fat" tufting in the seat back. I can't tell about the others, and they don't have their fenders or lamps to go by. Maybe the new cars are pretty early as well. Wasn't the speedometer discontinued for most of the '15 model year? When did that change happen?
The first "1915" tourings and runabouts were shipped to dealers in February 1915, so the picture can be no earlier than that. Speedometers were standard until the end of 1915 model year, mid summer of 1915.
Here is the list of changes:
FEB 10 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
New type (1915 style) Runabouts and Tourings now being shipped from the Highland Park plant.
FEB 13 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Ford advertising halted. Production listed as 40 to 50,000 behind schedule.
FEB 15 Factory Letter
Repeat of letter of Feb. 13. Ford unable to produce enough cars to fill orders, so why advertise. Noted that there were plenty of closed cars still available, however.
FEB 20 Letter to Houston branch
Letter concerning poor sales of closed cars; notes lack of salesmanship.
FEB 26 Letter to Branches
Carloads of new Tourings and Runabouts to be shipped to the branches and used as samples.
MAR 22 Acc. 1701. Model T Releases, Ford Archives
"Have removed the grooves from the surface of the foot (pedal) pads, making them smooth, with a fify-five degree bevel 1/16" deep around the edge. Also changed the thickness of pads at edges from 5/32 to 1/8", leaving then 5/32" thick at each side of arm where it joins pad. This change to take place when dies are resunk, all forgings which we have on hand at that time to be used up." (Joseph Galamb)
MAR 24 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Letter concerning leaks between the dash and the cowl. Noted that no felt or rubber was being used at the factory but that dealers should install same if customers complained about leaks at this point.
MAR 24 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Letter requesting opinions as to the desirability of discontinuing the left rear door on the Touring.
MAR 31 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Flanged rings with felt packing supplied for oil side and tail lamps to prevent their being blown out. The problem was noted in a letter of March 27, at which time the factory noted that they were shipping felts only for in-the-field modifications.
APR 1 Ford Times
First pictures of the new 1915 Touring and Roadster.
APR 3 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
"300,000 sales assured except for a `calamity or catastrophe'."
APR 7 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
"New (1915) style rear axle housings in short supply. Use 1914 type for repairs."
APR 13 Acc. 509, Letter, Ford Archives
Early E&J T-6511X electric headlamps with 8-5/8-inch lenses discontinued as a replacement part. From this date on, the standard lamps would be supplied as replacements. Note: This is believed to be the lamp which mounted on the gas lamp forks. T-6511X was the number for all the magneto-powered lamps until 1917.
APR 29 Factory Letter
"On or after May 1, the use of body numbers will be discontinued (by Ford) and no records will be kept of same."
MAY 11 Acc. 575, Box 19, Ford Archives
T-604. Lug on fan support arm finally eliminated. Note to change the drawing. (This may have occurred earlier.)
JUN 17 Factory Letter and engine production records
Welch plug used in tail shaft of the transmission brake drum to prevent oil leaks out through the universal joint.
JUN 19 Acc. 575, Box 19, Ford Archives
Headlight door. Change from brass to black steel specified.