Is a late 12 touring body the same as a 13 /14?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Is a late 12 touring body the same as a 13 /14?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 09:05 am:

My 12 touring is a smooth (slab) side with removable front doors. Looks the 14 I had. My wife tells me it looks just like the 14 we had. I do not see the difference either except for the removable front doors?

Does the rear of the body sit higher in the 12?

I think the 09 sat higher? Just comparing pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 09:36 am:

No. The '12 body is wider by a few inches, and stronger than a 1913 body. They are totally different body designs when comparing 1912, 1913, 1914.

The rear of the 1912 body is lower than 1909, but higher than 1913 - 1914.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 09:57 am:

Thanks Royce!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 11:27 am:

However, there were a lot of '13s made in calendar year 1913, and a lot of them are still around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 01:26 pm:

My late '12 has removable front doors. It is way different than my '13 and '14 bodies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 02:01 pm:

To the casual observer, the side-view of the late 1912 slab side bodies the with the fore-doors installed may look similar to the 1913 and 1914 bodies.

One significant difference between the slab side 1912 bodies and 1913 and 1914 bodies is that with the 1912 body the sheet metal extends down only to the wood sill which is exposed. So, there is a gap between the body sheet metal and the splash aprons.

With 1913 and 1914 bodies, the wood sill is covered by the sheet metal and the sheet metal extends down to and meets the splash aprons.

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 03:33 pm:

1912



1913



1914


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 04:56 pm:

Robert,

I think your wife is correct -- to most folks they would not see a lot of differences between a late 1912 smooth side and a 1914 touring from the side view. [From the rear the 12 has a step in lower part of the rear section while the 1914 had the more traditional smooth contoured body shape.] There are details that are different (windshields, body panels, etc.) but they look generally the same to many folks.



Similar to what is the difference between a 1968 and a 1970 VW bug? Since I've had one of each of those year VWs -- I can easily spot the differences. But to most folks they look about the same.

As Royce pointed out the body structure and panels are not interchangeable. Note the bodies will swap easily between the different 1912-1914 year chassis but the panels and wood structure of the bodies are different (and tops, windshields etc.).

Erik,

I always enjoy your postings – you highlight a lot of items that I book mark for later use. Note the illustration you posted and the illustrations I posted are all subject to “artist” license. There is a good chance your illustration with the door hinged at the rear – was never a production model (see Bruce McCalley “Model T Ford” page 112 and his discussion of a similar illustration from the Dec 1911 catalog.) So far we have not seen any photos or found any existing examples of a 1912 smooth sided car with a rear hinged door. [If anyone knows of one – please let the rest of know also.] But that is the illustration Ford published in his early sales catalogs. I suspect that illustration was touched up to make the door hinged at the front and was used as the illustration I posted above. Rationale: notice the front wheel valve stem is in the same location on both illustrations. And when I went to look at some of the 1911 catalog the illustrations of the 1911 touring cars did NOT show the three bolts for the front and middle body brackets – they were omitted. And all the 1911 photos I have looked at that clearly show the side of the car – show the heads of the three bolts for the front and middle body brackets on the 1911 touring bodies. Below is Phil Mino’s original late 1911 at from his web site at: http://www.fordfarm.net/11cartoday3.jpg which clearly shows those body brackets. [Note Phil believes the foredoors were added later and NOT from the factory.]



For those two 1912 illustrations above – it looks like there is a body sill visible. But I don’t think that is the way the cars actually looked. I.e..Phil’s 1911 above shows the bolt heads but clearly there is not a “sill” showing. I took a quick look at a few actual pictures of 1912 smooth sided (slab sided) bodies. So far with a very limited number of photos, so far I have only seen the body bracket bolt heads exposed on the cars with the outside rear door handles (step side as well as smooth side – the one Royce just posted (thank you Royce!). I have not yet seen any that show the three bolts holding the body bracket to the car on the outside of the body at the front and in front of the rear doors (i.e. the front and middle body brackets) for the smooth sided body WITHOUT the outsider rear door handle. So I think the illustration I posted probably was not of an actual body that was ever in production either – i.e.. they did not have that “sill” looking area below the doors. See several 1912 step side and smooth side bodies shown at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/119926.html with the early step side showing the brackets and the later slab side not showing the brackets.


I believe the early 1912 cars that continued with the 1911 style bodies also had metal on the outside of the body sill, but the three bolts on the front and middle body brackets were bolted through the metal skin as well as the wooden sill. Ref: pg 46, May – Jun 1965 Horseless Carriage Gazette, where they discussed a Feb 1911 Beaudett touring body and how it had a wooden lower half with the seats being wooden framed and skinned with steel panels. Also page 1 of the 1911 section of the “MTFCI Judging Guidelines Sixth Edition” that states, “Bodies: Steel panels over wood framework. Early versions had exposed wood on the lower half of body….” And for 1912 under bodies the Judging Guidelines have “Steel panels over wood framework….” and no mention of exposed wood. [Note the Judging Guidelines are available from the Chief Judge see: http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/33968.html and may also be ordered from the vendors.]

I tried to convince my wife we should sell the house and purchase some additional model Ts for research purposes. But she saw right through that one! So in the mean time I will continue to have to ask those with cars, photos, experience and questions to help clarify items etc.

Royce -- I'm glad I checked before I posted this -- as you added the photo of a smooth sided 1912 with out door handles that had the bolt heads showing for the body brackets. That was the first one of those I remember seeing. I also save a lot of your postings and appreciate your knowledge and details you share. Thank you!

Again, thank you to everyone for taking time to share and increase our understanding or even to “rattle our understanding” by showing us something that doesn’t fit our current descriptions.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 05:47 pm:

I don't see the bolts either.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 06:33 pm:

I had a tough time trying to find a photo on the internet that showed the sill on the 1912 slab side body as the sill tends to fall into the shadows in photographs. I robbed the catalog graphic from another forum thread because it showed the sill between the body sheet metal and the splash apron.

Phil Mino's car is not a "slab side" (my term) so it does not have the exposed sill.

The sill can clearly be seen in the photos of the slab slide '12s that Royce posted - the ones with the door handle as well as without the door handle. In the last photo that Royce posted, the sill is most clearly visible.

Below is a local 1912 that was restored approximately 35 years ago and has held up rather well. It was a fairly complete car prior to restoration (not a "put-together"). The sill is not covered with metal. However, it is hard to see the sill in the photo. (My father is the gentleman standing next to the car.)

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 06:41 pm:

Here is probably the best photo of what I am trying to convey regarding the exposed wooden sill on slab side 1912 tourings.

The guy who restored this car must love varnished wood. Notice that he varnished the sill. The body sheet metal extends to the top of the sill. The body sheet metal does not meet the splash apron.

Unless I am mistaken, this is how all slab slide touring bodies are made, with an exposed wooden sill, regardless if they have outside rear door handles.

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 07:35 pm:

You can clearly see the sill on the period photo below - note that the body sheet metal does not touch the splash apron. The wooden sill creates a gap.

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Here is Scott Hiler's touring. No door handle but the three front body bracket bolts in the sill can be seen.

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Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 08:05 pm:

There is a wood sill. No question. I have a late 1912 (August) Touring, and it does not have the door handles on the outside and it has the wood sill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 08:12 pm:

So does my late '12. Inside door latches and a exposed wood sill. I'd post a picture but have never been able to figure out how.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 08:24 pm:

Erik,

Thank you so much for taking the time to locate some photos that clearly showed the body sheet metal stopping short of the wooden sill on the 1912 slab sided cars and then the splash apron starting. I know you said that clearly earlier in the posting and thank you for helping me finally see it. While the "varnished" wood sill on the 1912 you posted above would not have been "clear varnished" back in the day from the factory, it really helps to make that recessed wood sill visible to folks that have never noticed it before.

Looking back at some of the slab sided photos -- many of them are too dark in that area to really tell. But with several of the photos I had previously looked at I can now make out that a recessed wood sill is there -- just hard to see in the shadows and at the angle the photo was taken.

Again thank you all for your help and support as we try to better document the early Fords. I know some of you must be thinking ... "get a life" but thank you for bearing with me as I try capture additional details. As someone once said, "None of us is as smart as all of us."

Again thank you Eric!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 08:36 pm:

I hope you can see here, I have tried to lighten the photos. This is the skeleton of my 1912 touring in primer. You can just see the bolts on the outside sill if you look closely.

The view inside is of the sill itself with the body bolts going thru it.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, November 24, 2013 - 08:37 pm:

My bad -- that is Erik.

Respectfully corrected,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 07:24 am:

Greg,

Thank you for posting the photo. I would guess it was harder to see the exposed wooden sill before you lightened the photo some.

Have you thought about contacting Leon Parker [his forum profile is at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=leon_parker-users ] and working with him to possibly produce some rewooding plans for the 1912 slab sided touring body? He has already drawn up the 1913 to 1927 open car rewooding plans. And several Fords have their original style bodies thanks to that work. Or perhaps you could at least add a ruler in the pictures like the ones you posted? Then folks can at least better estimate the initial cuts/size for the different pieces of wood?

Pages 41-43 of the May-Jun 1972 "Vintage Ford" has photos of the rewooding of a 1912 slab sided touring. Great photos but adding something to help judge the distances or even adding the dimensions of several of the key pieces would be a great help to anyone that wanted to tackle a 1912 slab sided rewooding project in the future. If you do not already have that article, drop me a note and I will scan & send it to you. (If you click on my name it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down. The club allows us to share articles such as that for free to help promote the club and to get a few more Fords back on the road.)

Again, thank you for posting the photo and good luck with your project!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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