OT - Pre Model NRS and T, number sold and money made (by Ford Mo. Co.)

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: OT - Pre Model NRS and T, number sold and money made (by Ford Mo. Co.)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 12:57 am:

This is a look at the models preceding the Model N. While we know Ford Motor Company realized tremendous success building Models N, R and S, helping pave the way to the phenomenal success of the Model T, we usually don't think about the success of the previous models. However, success or lack of, with the first models helped the fledgling Ford Motor Company become the leading auto manufacturer in the world with the advent of the Model N.

So, how did each model sell? What were profits from each model? The answers to these questions are available, and interesting.

One of the reasons for putting this thread together is due to a prevalent theme among Ford historians (and as a result, among early Ford enthusiasts) that Henry Ford was forced to build the two larger cars, models B and K by other Ford Motor Company investors (mainly A. Y. Malcomson), while he (Ford) desired to make smaller inexpensive cars. This quote from a poster on the other thread circulating now concerning Alexander Malcomson:

"A forty horsepower car priced between $2000 and $3000 is the same formula that sold poorly for Ford."

This implied that the Model K, priced at $2500 to $2800, did not perform well for FMC. Is this true? Following is a spreadsheet using Ford model sales numbers for models A, B, C, F and K. Included are sales rank, (number of cars sold of each model) and more importantly, how much revenue did each model bring Ford Motor Company? The results are surprising (at least they were to me).




Explanation:
Ford model sales numbers are combined information from Trent Boggess and Carlton Pate. Numbers may vary somewhat, and are slightly different from Bruce McCalley's numbers in the MTFCA Encyclopedia.
1. Sales Rank. The Model A was the sales leader with just over 1800 cars sold, the Model B was 5th with 500 cars sold.

2. Sales gross revenue. Models sold times list price.

3. Gross revenue minus 25% dealer commission.

4. Estimated Gain: This number is a little difficult to arrive at, however, by using the inset, a copy of a Ford Audit Report showing B, F and K, a rough number is 22% of Gross revenue. Actually, Models N and F (we have those numbers in audit reports) show a greater reduction in gross revenue to the "Gain" or profit column, but I used the Model K number to be conservative. In other words, the lower priced models probably did not make as much money, percentage wise, as the more expensive cars, however I don't have numbers available for Models A and C, so I assigned the Model K number of 22% of gross revenue as profit.

Bottom line, Model K is the "hands down" biggest money maker of the pre Model N Fords (all models made good profits). The inset shows Model K numbers, and we know from these records that Model K was far and away the leader in profit for Ford in 1906, and generated a significant profit in 1907.

The other thing this spreadsheet does is demonstrate how few sales of motor cars were needed in the early years of the industry to be a sales leader. Ford Motor Company was already in the top ten for number of cars produced, even with what appear to us today to be small numbers of cars sold.

I appreciate any serious questions or help putting more complete numbers together.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 01:36 am:

Great job, Rob!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 02:13 am:

I enjoy your research Rob. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 03:48 am:

Remember, that is among the top ten out of more than a hundred producers.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 07:00 am:

Thanks guys, I probably didn't explain it as well as I would have liked, but I'm sure I'll get the chance to defend the numbers.......:-)

Wayne, good point. In 1907 "Motor" magazine reported 255 manufacturers selling automobiles in the U.S..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 07:18 am:

I don't think it is debatable to say that the Model K was around tenth place in sales of cars in its price range. That is a rather unremarkable showing.

Considering that there were fifty manufacturers selling cars in that same price range it is easy to see why Henry Ford decided to quit wasting his time on such a small volume product. None of those fifty manufacturers realized they could sell millions of cars to a much larger market simply by reducing the price of the car to within reach of a bigger group of buyers.

The crowded marketplace of the Model K was only part of the reason it sold poorly. Ford's reputation was built on a low priced car, the Models A, C and F. By focusing the company on one outstanding product line of low priced cars Ford could dominate the entire industry for decades to come.

If Ford had continued wasting his efforts building an unremarkable car to capture a small piece of a smaller market we would not be talking about the Model K at all today.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 09:22 am:

Rob,

Where is the Model AC in your listing? I seem to remember something about Car No 655 or so that the Model A really became the Model AC. Do you have any information on this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 10:41 am:

Royce,

Because you type something doesn't make it so. There were many more than "fifty manufacturers" making cars in the $2000 to $3000 price range (I shouldn't have to do your research too).

From you post -

Royce: "The crowded marketplace of the Model K was only part of the reason it sold poorly. Ford's reputation was built on a low priced car, the Models A, C and F."

The Model K was Ford's third best selling car among the first five models in number of cars sold. It was by far the leader in revenue produced by the first five models. In fact, in the 1905 Ford Motor Company Board of Directors meeting minutes (spring of 1905), the directors voted to reduce the price of two cylinder cars due to complaints from dealers of poor sales OF THE TWO CYLINDER CARS! NO MENTION WAS MADE OF THE MODEL B, indicating there wasn't a problem with sales of that model. What part of this don't you get?

Royce: "If Ford had continued wasting his efforts building an unremarkable car to capture a small piece of a smaller market we would not be talking about the Model K at all today."

Had Ford not "wasted his efforts" producing models B and K, Ford Motor Company would have realized many less dollars in profits, not paying investors huge dividends and investing in new models (allowing the company to continue on it's path toward models N, R, S and T).

As for "unremarkable", Model K accomplishments include (I sound like a broken record):

1. World Record - The MODEL K IS THE ONLY ALPHABET LETTER FORD TO CAPTURE A WORLD RECORD, setting the 24 hour world record for miles covered on a track (June 23, 1907, 1135 miles, averaging over 47 miles per hour). In the process, the Model K beat major brands including Thomas Flyer (60 hp, same as the 1908 New York to Paris Flyer), Pope Toledo (50 hp), American (50 hp) Buick and Stevens Duryea in the contest.

2. Placed fifth in "Motor Magazine" contest. Over 6500 subscribers chose the $3000 or less car they would most like to own. Over 100 cars were included in contestants choices.

3. Placed first in various speed and hill climb contests, including winning both the $2000 to $3000 class of both runabouts and touring cars in the prestigious 1907 Stucky Hill Climb Event.

4. Outsold all brands six cylinder car makers in both 1906 and 1907, including six cylinder car makers Stevens Duryea, Franklin and National to name a few.

I ask that you not pull numbers from wherever (not my first choice of words) and represent them as fact. I respectfully request you research first, or find another place to imply information is factual rather than on each and every one of my posts and threads.

Thomas,
The little research I've done (concerning Model A/AC) seems to show Ford continued to identify the 10 hp Model A as "Model A", not "AC". I suspect the "AC" came into play in parts catalogues, because engine parts and some chassis parts were dependent on which engine/chassis one had (again, my opinion, not researched fact). So, the numbers listed above are for all Model A (and AC).

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 12:05 pm:

Rob - Keep up the good work. Nice job!

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 12:17 pm:

Veerrry interesting!
Facts...not opinions.
I know how much time it takes to dig up these old newspaper articles and archival information.
(What Keith said)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 03:32 pm:

Rob,
Again, Rob, you have given nothing except non answers to the actual facts posted.

Tell us then, if the Model K was fabulously profitable beyond all other products and all, why then did Henry Ford tell his closest confidants that he was forced to build the Model B and Model K? Why would he cancel production and forfeit all those fabulous profits? Was he also tired of setting world records?

And why did he unceremoniously cancel production of the Model K, never entering the high priced market again with a Ford named product?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 04:01 pm:

Now, I don't know anything about USA history but good business sense I do, tell us Royce, would you still build a high priced car when the stock marked crashed by 50% in 1907?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Everett on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 04:06 pm:

Kerry, I'd forgotten about that. Wasn't it later called The Panic Of 1907, or close to that?

Were the ALAM royalties based on mere units sold, or was it dollars of revenue, or some combination?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 04:17 pm:

Kerry,

All the manufacturers competing with the Model K continued to do so. The Panic of 07 did not seem to affect car sales in a big way. Demand was such that a person would be more likely to cut back on something other than buying an automobile.

The era of 1905 - 1925 was similar to the personal computer boom of the 1990's. Except it lasted longer, and made Henry Ford much richer and more famous than Bill Gates will ever be.

If Henry had continued to make the Model K instead of focusing solely on the Model T we might think of him as an earlier day Al Gore.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 04:30 pm:

Two closest confidants? Galamb and Sorensen were Henry Ford's two closest confidants? In 1906 no less.

Point by point:

Model K production was not "unceremoniously cancelled". 1000 chassis were contracted, and about 1000 Model Ks were produced over a 30 month period. As with all of the alphabet Fords, components were contracted for, assembled, sold, and Ford moved on to the next model. For example, 500 Model B chassis were contracted, built and sold.

One example where this didn't occur was the Model C. While 2000 chassis were contracted, less than 900 were actually sold. Maybe your "confidants" got it wrong, and it was Model C that caused the problem?

Tired of setting world records: no, in fact Ford was still racing the stock Model K as late as Sept 1908 (Kalamazoo MI, Kulick drove a K to first place in it's class). Henry Ford also committed to racing the Six Cylinder Racer in the Indy races in August 1909, although the racer did not make the race. At that time he declared the six cyl. racer was still he fastest racer in the world.

High priced market: yes, Ford left the high priced market, until buying Lincoln, 12 years after the last Model Ks were sold.

Bottom line. The Model K was the most profitable of the pre Model N Fords. That is a fact, supported by Ford records, and opinions will not trump that fact.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 04:40 pm:

Again Rob, not one word you have posted disputes in any way what Ford said - that he did not want to build the Model K at all. His own actions show us what he wanted to build once he had sold as many Model K's as he could in a two year period, a figure closer to 900 cars.


Here's what this web site says, written by Trent Boggess and Bruce M:

Model K
The Model K was a six-cylinder car available as either a touring or a roadster. Expensive ($25-2800), and not too good, it was a poor seller and generally credited for Henry Ford's dislike for six-cylinder cars.
First sale April 16, 1906. Last sale September 30, 1908.* Approximately 900 were made, beginning with serial number one.
Horsepower 40
Bore/Stoke 4-1/2 by 4-1/4 inches
Cylinders 6
Wheelbase 114 inches
Tread 56 inches
Price 1905-06, $2500 plus gas lamps
1907-08, $2800, $3000 with top and lamps.
Link:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/earlyfds.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 05:04 pm:

What are you talking about? When and where did Henry Ford say "he did not want to build the Model K at all (your words)? Didn't happen. Henry Ford had complete control of Ford Motor Company for all intents and purposes in December 1905 when Malcomson started Aerocar.

Financially he had control by the summer of 1906, purchasing Malcomson's stock and having controlling interest in the company. Still he chose to build the Model K through the summer of 1908.

Much of this information has recently come to light. I believe Trent would agree we now know much more than we did before about the Model K and it's place in Ford history. However I won't pretend to speak for Trent or anyone else. These are my opinions based on information I've researched. I don't care what your opinions are, however if you are going to call my research into question bring something to light to corroborate your opinions.

As for numbers, Ford sold at least 952 Model Ks, because #952 exists.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, November 25, 2013 - 10:46 pm:

Royce will never be able to come up with a direct quote that Henry Ford did not like the Model K.

He also thinks that this is a personal opinion forum, not a factual forum. His loss.

We all know that Henry's ultimate goal was to build a car for the multitudes. A car that would be inexpensive enough that almost anyone could afford to buy it. A car that would help out the farmer. He succeeded.

He was also 45 years old and somewhat set in his ways. He ran with it. His goal was to produce as many cars as possible and at the lowest price, and boy did he succeed. Why change? Why build a bigger car? He was enjoying what he accomplished, and now we are able to enjoy what he did. Little did he know.

Now the next item on my bucket list is to drive in a Model K speedster. I wonder if I will be able to fulfill that dream?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 12:43 am:

"THE BIG SIX RACER WHICH I HAVE ALWAYS CONSIDERED AS THE FASTEST RACER IN THE WORLD" Henry Ford, June 24,1909

I placed this and several articles on the thread concerning Henry Ford and A.Y. Malcomson. I think this particular article, dated June 24 1909, is the most revealing regarding Henry Ford's attitude about his six cylinder car.

Following the Ocean to Ocean victory by a Model T, Ford is invited to place a racer in the upcoming inaugural Indianapolis Speedway Race. Following is his response. He (Ford) makes very supportive statements about the six cylinder racer he designed, and plans to race again:




Why would Henry Ford give this interview if he wasn't serious about his intention to race the six cylinder again? There are no longer any investors to satisfy (not that I think this was ever an issue). Henry Ford is in complete control of the company. No Model Ks left to sell or promote. In fact, one could suggest this article undermines the new four cylinder Model T by giving six cylinder auto makers ammunition (although not an issue in my opinion). I believe a reasonable person will read this and arrive at the conclusion Henry Ford believes in and is proud of his six cylinder creation.

We are able to choose to believe what Henry Ford said in 1909, or we can give more weight to what two surrogates said about Henry Ford and the six cylinder car fifty years later in memoirs and reminisces.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 12:44 am:

Dave, reference the Model K racer, stay tuned......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:06 am:

I think Ford changed because the market changed and Henry had the forsight to see it! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:17 am:

I think Bud is correct about this. The market did change dramatically, and it was largely because Henry changed it with the Model T. The T turned out to be successful beyond anyone's dreams, even Henry's. It is not surprising that he chose to concentrate his energy on the T and put other endeavors on the back burner. That does not demonstrate or even imply that he didn't like the K or any other "big" cars, just that he was a sharp enough businessman to focus on his idea to "build a car for the multitudes" and be very successful at it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:20 am:

Bud,

I agree, no car model remains forever. The closest thing to that happening are probably the Model T and VW Bug. Until 1908/09, Ford Motor Company went through eight letter models (1903-1908). The "life span" of those models (time actually marketed) was:

Model A - 1903/04, Model C - 1904/05, Model B - 1904/05, Model F - 1905/06, Model K - 1906/08, Model N - 1906/08, Model R - 1907, Model S Runabout - 1907/1908, and Model S Roadster - 1908.

While there were cars sold outside this range (examples, Model B was sold into 1906, Models N, S R and K were sold into FY 1909) the Model years were essentially those listed above.

So the fact the Model K was sold "only" through three marketing years is not remarkable (or un remarkable). In fact, along with the Model N, they were the only two of the eight alphabet Fords to be sold through three marketing years.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:37 am:

For what it's worth, this is what Robert Lacey has to say about the Model K in Ford, on page 78:

". . .Malcomson wanted to move the product range upmarket and he got Ford and Wills to design a grand-luxury touring car with a six-cylinder engine: the Model K. [Malcomson] was convinced that the future of the automobile lay in this direction, and market trends apparently favored his arguments. . .
If Henry Ford had truly been as opposed to the expensive Model K as he later claimed, then he would never have designed it in the first place. But he did genuinely differ with Malcomson on the commercial path that their company should pursue: in May 1905, he gave an interview prophesying "Ten Thousand Autos at $400 Apiece" to the Detroit Journal. . ."
[continued on page 79]
"The traditional high-profit consumer market was the rich and the affluent middle classes. But Henry Ford was one of those who was sensing that a much larger, and potentially richer, market lay elsewhere."

Not sure if that throws any additional light on the problem, but I thought I'd "throw it in the ring," so to speak.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:39 am:

Mike,
I think another "factor" that played into the whole equation is Henry Ford the man. Born in 1863, by 1913 he is fifty years old (young to many of us now :-(). Between 1902 and 1906, he was building and racing cars every chance he had. Even in 1906, as Ford Motor Company is preparing to roll out Models N and K (both models become the most successful cars built by Ford Mo Co to date in terms of profit), Henry Ford is racing at Ormond in late January early February, when these two models are not ready for market (and should be).

However, by 1909, Henry Ford seems to have "settled" into managing what will become the most efficient auto producing firm ever seen on the planet. I think Henry Ford's focus changed at the same time the Model T became a runaway success.

Ford did have one more "bout' with racing, building the 410 cubic inch "Model T Special" racer that won everything in site between 1910 through 1912 (in 1911, Ford Motor Company placed 5th among all auto manufacturers in number of first place victories in speed and hill climbing events). After that, it was all about efficiency in production.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:52 am:

John,

Robert Lacey has a little for all of us. While he "blames" or credits Malcomson with desiring the car be built (K), he credits Henry Ford and Wills with the design.

I differ in the "Malcomson" regard. James Couzens points out that A. Malcomson had virtually no influence in day to day matters at Ford Motor Company after 1904. Another initial investor, in his "reminisces" taken by Ford Motor Company in the 1950s says the same thing (Malcomson had no day to day influence with Ford Motor Company), although the name of this investor escapes me now.

One of my contentions to support the idea that Malcomson had no influence over development of the Model K is because the first car Malcomson turned out at Aerocar (and Malcomson is president, and intimately involved with day to day operations at Aerocar, as the chief financier of the endeavor) in no way resembled the Model K (a 24 horsepower four cylinder air cooled touring car).

The other primary reason I think the investors had no influence over Henry Ford and the development of the Model K is because Henry Ford had turned his attention to the six cylinder engine and Ford racer long before the Model K was designed. Ford developed the six cylinder racer in late 1904, first racing it in January 1905. The design and racing of this six cylinder racer had nothing to do with Ford Motor Company investors, and everything to do with Henry Ford's desire to re own the world speed record in the mile, that he first captured in early 1904. We see Henry Ford try again and again to "re capture" the mile record, saying he would race the six cylinder racer as late as August 1909. Hardly someone "forced to build it" in my opinion,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:52 am:

Did Henry have great vision in seeing the model T or did simply see what others did not offer? My thanks to Rob for the research that set's the record straight instead quoating stories that that while put in print/voice 60 years ago may not be the true fact's!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Everett on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 12:02 pm:

The Model K was a significant learning step for Ford and rightly deserves historical credit for increasing the company's capitalization which made the significant, necessary expenditures for plant and equipment possible for our T's.

I've not read the Selden patent, nor the AMA'S licensing agreement (s) with those firms that had them.

Does anyone know the specifics of those agreements, particularly where fees were concerned? In other words, did Peerless pay more to sell a $6,000 car than Old smile to sell a less expensive one, or was the same fee paid for a car regardless of its price?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 12:26 pm:

Bill
I thought this a good overview on the Selden Patent (and Henry Ford).

http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/how-henry-ford-zapped-a-licensing-monopoly #axzz2llxmoKZg

The article says 5% of retail price was the licensing fee.

Ford directors minutes included an interesting note on the patent suit. I'll post it when I'm back home this evening,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 12:18 am:

To those who claim that the statements about the Model K found in the Model T Encyclopedia were written by Bruce McCalley and myself, you are in mistaken.

I did not write the Model K story found in the Early Ford chapter of Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia. I, like many others, made contributions by sending Bruce information as we found it. Bruce would do the editing, and he placed it into the Encyclopedia as a gift to all Model T enthusiasts. The Encyclopedia is his work, I do not claim any part of it on my Curriculum Vita.

Bruce would on occasion, when he found something I wrote that he thought was especially valuable, ask permission to include it in the Encyclopedia. I always said yes. He would include my work into the Encyclopedia in its entirety, and he ALWAYS gave me credit for my work. He clearly identified it as "By Trent Boggess" immediately beneath the title. I accept responsibility for the errors in the articles that I wrote and are under my by line. But I have always thought of the Encyclopedia as Bruce's work. Please do not credit me for work I did not do.

I also want to make it clear that the statement on the the Model K that is found in the Encyclopedia was not written by me, nor do subscribe to the myth that the Model K was forced on Mr. Ford by the other shareholders, and that the Model K was both a design and financial failure. In my opinion the facts do not support the claim that the car was a failure, design or otherwise.

My respected friend John Regan once told me that he thought of his national award winning restored Model Ts as "works in progress" even after winning all the awards possible. He is continually learning something "new" about the cars, or finding a part that his extensive research showed should have been on the car but wasn't, and he is continually updating the cars to reflect his current level of knowledge.

The history of the Ford letter series cars, from A to T, is also a work in progress. As new sources and new information are uncovered, it is necessary to go back and rewrite the historical narrative to reflect what is known now that was not known when the narrative was last revised.

I think the Model K narrative needs to be rewritten and brought up to date, reflecting the knowledge we have gained over the past 15 years.

Respectfully Submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 03:08 am:

The encyclopedia? What's that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 07:26 am:

Trent,

Thank you for weighing in.

John,

MTFCA has an online Encyclopedia. It's a great quick resource, and contains useful information. I recommend anyone who has not used it recently to do so.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm

However, using it as an absolute resource is akin to using Wikipedia, some things are up to date, other portions may be a bit outdated.

The late (loved and respected in the Model T community) Bruce McCalley wrote a major (all?) portion of the MTFCA Encyclopedia with contributions from others such as Trent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 07:26 am:

Encyclopedia:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 08:28 am:

Trent,

Thanks for the comment! In any case, we have Bruce's encyclopedia, and he is not here to edit or defend it. Perhaps we should just delete the entire encyclopedia since we cannot trust the whole?

I still believe we can trust the people who actually knew Henry Ford, and who walked with Henry Ford, talked with Henry ford, and broke bread with Henry Ford. Take a look at what Floyd Clymer and Henry Austin Clark wrote about the early years of Ford Motor company and the Model K for example. Both of these men were on a first name basis with Henry Ford. Their opinion has merit beyond anything we who have never met Henry can derive from publicity statements carefully crafted to sell cars.

For those reasons I believe Bruce for the most part is accurate when he says what he did.

Finally, we know that Henry did not build any successor to the Model K because he did not want to. You can try to argue that fact, but it still is a fact. If Henry Ford loved the Model K it was not enough love to make him want to build more of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 09:07 am:

Royce:

While the subject matter at issue does not involve legal matters, some analogy is in my opinion applicable.

Generally, with respect to legal matters, a statement made out of court that is offered in court as evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted is considered to be hearsay. Hearsay is generally not permitted in court because such out of court statements hinder the ability of the judge and or jury to probe the testimony for inaccuracies attributable to confusion, insincerity, erroneous perception or memory. Thus, such statements made out of court are generally viewed as untrustworthy.

With respect to the matter at issue, we have on one hand the reported recollections of a couple of individuals. On the other hand Rob has unearthed hundreds of documents and other data that suggest a different perspective. One could argue that much of the information, including the written recollection of Ford's friends, constitutes hearsay. However, I think most any casual observer with an open mind would agree that the preponderance of the material, hearsay or otherwise, clearly suggests that what has been written long ago about Model K Fords may not be so.

Timothy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 09:12 am:

Tim,

Well said. However, we know that Henry did not build any successor to the Model K because he did not want to. You can try to argue that fact, but it still is a fact. If Henry Ford loved the Model K it was not enough love to make him want to build more of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 09:48 am:

Royce,

You said:

"Trent,

Thanks for the comment! In any case, we have Bruce's encyclopedia, and he is not here to edit or defend it. Perhaps we should just delete the entire encyclopedia since we cannot trust the whole? "

Earlier on this thread, you wrote:

"Here's what this web site says, written by Trent Boggess and Bruce M:

The Model K was a six-cylinder car available as either a touring or a roadster. Expensive ($25-2800), and not too good, it was a poor seller and generally credited for Henry Ford's dislike for six-cylinder cars........."

When you presumed Trent wrote the above information, or co authored it, the information was "gospel". However, when he (Trent) disagrees (based on many years of research), you dismiss him.

That's not research or fact finding, just subjective selection to support your opinions at all costs. If one expects to maintain any degree of credibility, I personally would recommend not throwing known authorities on early Fords "under the bus" to support your opinion.

That is my advice to you, take it or leave it.

Have a happy Thanksgiving,

Rob.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 09:56 am:

Of course Henry Ford (I'm not on a first name basis) didn't build any more Models A, (guess he did restart the alphabet, of course not the same car),B,C,F,N,R,S or T. So, based on your in reasoning, (Henry Ford) "was not enough love to make him want to build more of them."

Not the way I'd frame an argument, but that's just me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 10:39 am:

Royce:


Tim,

“Well said.”

Thank you.


“However, we know that Henry did not build any successor to the Model K because he did not want to.”

All we know for certain is that Ford did not build a successor to the Model K. We do not know, and likely never will know, what he wanted and did not want. Just because someone does not do something does not mean that they do not want to do that something. It may simply mean that they have chosen not to do so, for who knows what reason.


“You can try to argue that fact, but it still is a fact.”

What fact? If your reference is to not building a successor to the K, I agree. If your reference is to Ford’s wants.....there is nothing factual to debate.


“If Henry Ford loved the Model K it was not enough love to make him want to build more of them.”

How is it possible to reach the conclusion that Ford did not love the Model K simply because he did not build more of them? He may have been incredibly fond of the Model K (and there is evidence of such as he was planning on entering a six cylinder auto in the Indy 500 in 1909) but simply realized that building six cylinder autos was not the path he wanted to follow as he built the Ford empire.


Timothy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 10:46 am:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 11:52 am:

Mark,

DID NOT!

That was pretty good :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 02:10 pm:

Royce (& others),

With all due respect, who says Ford did not build a successor to the Model K? How was the T any more a successor to the NRS cars than to the K? The K had tons of parts that very closely resembled, in both appearance and design, their counterparts on the Model T. The K also shared the same design and engineering as the NRS cars. If you just forget the extra 2 cylinders for a moment, the Model K was simply a scaled up Model T, while the NRS cars were just scaled down Model T's. The Model T appears to be the culmination of NRS & K! I argue that the Model T was definitely a successor to the K, (and NRS too).

Another thought. By most accounts, Henry DID love the Model T, but he stopped building them too... People don't always stop doing things because they hate them. Necessity sometimes rules the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

Tim,

If you are suggesting Henry Ford was not solely in control of Ford Motor Company in 1908 I disagree. Henry and Henry alone controlled the direction of the company from about 1907 until perhaps 1938, give or take a year either way. He was the majority stockholder. As the succeeding 10 years came, Henry forced out all other stock holders.

Any decision to make the Model K would have to be made when Malcomson was President of Ford Motor Company. We have every reason to believe that the decision to make the Model K was not due to Henry suggesting it or voting for it.

Any decision to make a successor to the Model K after 1908 would have been in the complete and total control of Henry Ford. His holdings ensured he could make any decision he cared to.

If you think you know a reason Ford did not make a Model K successor, perhaps you can enlighten us? My opinion goes back to the words of Henry himself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 02:47 pm:

Actually, John Gray, Alexander Malcomson's uncle, was president of Ford Motor Company from the beginning to his death on July 6, 1906.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 02:49 pm:

Royce,

If you insist on commenting on each and every one of the threads I post, please work on accuracy.

Alexander Y. Malcomson, was never "President" of Ford Motor Company. He was, however, President of Aerocar Automobile Company, beginning in December 1905. If you read my post (and I'm sure you at least glanced at it, if past performance is an indicator) with Ford Directors minutes running concurrent to this thread, Ford Motor Company did not order chassis for Models K and N until January 1906. A. Y. Malcomson was at that time president of Aerocar, and the Board of Directors (Ford) had given him (Malcomson) a resolution requesting his immediate resignation from office with Ford Motor Company.



Furthermore, James Couzens, in his biography, says Malcomson had no effective involvement in Ford operations (paraphrasing) after 1904.

Concerning this matter, you are wrong, and this might be a good time to practice humility.

That's my suggestion, take it or leave it.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 02:57 pm:

Rob,

One thousand apologies, I knew John Gray was president until his death. Let me rephrase, and again, I apologize profusely for my error and thank you a million times over for your most gracious correction.

If you are suggesting Henry Ford was not solely in control of Ford Motor Company in 1908 I disagree. Henry and Henry alone controlled the direction of the company from about 1907 until perhaps 1938, give or take a year either way. He was the majority stockholder. As the succeeding 10 years came, Henry forced out all other stock holders.

Any decision to make the Model K would have to be made when John Gray was President of Ford Motor Company. We have every reason to believe that the decision to make the Model K was not due to Henry suggesting it or voting for it.

Any decision to make a successor to the Model K after 1908 would have been in the complete and total control of Henry Ford. His holdings ensured he could make any decision he cared to.

If you think you know a reason Ford did not make a Model K successor, perhaps you can enlighten us? My opinion goes back to the words of Henry himself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 03:11 pm:

I still think we must think out side the circle and at the state of the economy at the time, some research shows that it took 2+ years, to 1910, to regain the loss of the 1907 crash, so Ford had full control, late 1907 wasn't he putting all his efforts and thoughts into his new release, the model T, why build a high priced car when your high end market share is broke, by the time confidence was back for high priced sales the T was well established, production line fully tooled up, good sales and had no reason to look back. just my opinion at this stage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 03:22 pm:

Royce,

I said nothing of 1908. In fact, I firmly believe Henry Ford was in complete control from the time Ford Motor Company issued 100% stock dividends beginning in late 1903 (or early 1904, I don't recall without researching again).

Kerry,

I agree the recession was surely a factor. However, from news accounts of the period (referencing Ford matters) it seemed the recession was not as severe as was initially anticipated. I recall someone else saying it was a cash or banking confidence issue, but again, without research I'm unsure.

As early as 1906 Henry Ford said he would like to develop an inexpensive light touring car. I think a car like the Model T was his "dream" early on. I also believe that the incredible success of his pre T models allowed the opportunity to design and tool up for the Model T. Definitely an exciting time.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 03:44 pm:

Royce

It is as obvious as the nose on the end of your face.

Ford ordered 1000 Model K chassis and 10,000 Model N chassis. As Rob states above, Henry wanted to build an inexpensive light touring car that anyone could afford to buy, hence the Model T.

Is he going to build 1000 more expensive cars or 10,000 less expensive cars? He is obviously going to build 10,000+ inexpensive cars! He has a successful car in the Model T and a new factory to boot. A factory set up to produce one model and one model only. How much time did he spend in the experimental room with Galamb and others to develop what he thought was the car to end all cars? Years later he still did not think he could improve on it and kept building the same Model. He was finished. He was done. He had conceived, designed, and built the best car in the world that money could buy. Why would he consider any other type of automobile?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 04:53 pm:

Rob,
Do you still own a Model T? as all we hear about is your Model K and some times your Model N

I like K's and N's but would like more on the Model T
-Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 05:32 pm:

Don,

Yes, we have the 09 and 13. However, I don't use OT when discussing them on this forum.

Rob


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration