History is one of my hobbies, so I assume it is okay to post a non Model T OT thread related to my hobby.
I have received several PM's from members regarding sending them the 20 Thomas Jefferson quotes that I posted at the end of the Obamacare thread so since there were four members who contacted me wanting the quotes, there may be more wanting them, so I am posting them on their own thread.
Chris, If these historical quotes are deemed harmful or offensive then by all means delete them. Jim Patrick
Hosting a dinner for Nobel Prize winners in the White House in 1962, President Kennedy opened his remarks by saying, "I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."
This should be required reading for every first term legislator.
Thank you !!!
Jim, I would think that old Henry himself would agree 100 per cent with the above list......
Researching a few of the above quotations, I found that at least a few are considered "spurious quotes" by Monticello the website of Jefferson's home. I am inclined to believe they have been careful when they attribute a quote to Thomas Jefferson, or state that it is spurious.
As Abraham Lincoln is quoted as saying,"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet."
I figured that was coming. Some of that just seemed too good to be true. I would have Snopes'd it, but didn't have time.
Thank you Jim P!!!!
A refresher even I need once in a while.
I too was suspicious; they seemed to be too close to what a right-winger would like him to have said.
Thomas jefferson, "right-winger"? Typical. Interesting that this comes from England where Thomas Jefferson, a rebel, was no hero, since he was most instrumental in the American Revolution against England. Nice of you to attempt to discredit one of our founding fathers. I guess according to your link, Thomas Jefferson was never quoted as saying anything and just enjoyed sitting on his porch smoking hemp. That right there shows me the kind of left wing people and mindset who created your article to cast historical figures in a bad light and attempt to re-write history. Thank you, but I'd rather believe he did say many, if not all of these things and did a little more than get high on hemp, after all, we are no longer under the yoke of British tyranny thanks to men like him, which enabled us to come to the aid of and help win two world wars on the side of our former enemy, so you should be grateful to him instead of attempting to denigrate him. Jim Patrick
Here is a direct quote of Thomas Jefferson from July, 1776:
WHEN in the Course of human Events it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth the separate & equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Natureís God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
WE hold these Truths to be self-evident: that all Men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with inherent and [certain] inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness: that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, & to institute new government, laying itís foundation on such principles, & organizing itís powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety & happiness. Prudence indeed will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light & transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses & usurpations begun at a distinguished period and pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty to throw off such government, & to provide new guards for their future security.
I'm a little left of center myself and yet I agree with most of the quotes attributed to Jefferson above. He was one of the greatest of the founding fathers.
BUT that said, why would anyone object to trying to find out the truth of whether a quote was truly by him or not?
No matter what, he will always be a hero to me.
BTW Here's another one to chew on by Ben Franklin:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both".
Bud, I don't object to finding the truth. What I object to is creating a lie to intentionally destroy the integrity and accomplishments of an obviously great man who has probably done more than just about anyone in history to affect our world in a positive way. I put him in the same category as George Washington and a century and a half later, Winston Churchill a British hero who also stood alone against overwhelming odds. I'm sure Churchill too, had his flaws but his greatness, his accomplishments and the affect he had on our world far outweighs any flaws I might be able to find, were I so inclined to look...which I am not. Jim Patrick
Thanks Jim! I have a boat-load of family I need to show this to, although it'll be preaching to the choir.
Thanks Jim !! My favorite of the Founding Fathers. I printed the quotes you provided, will frame them and display them out in the Conservatory where I keep my many Model T s !! There. . . . I've saved this thread from censorship. . .
I must have missed it, what lie did Chris Barker, or anyone else make? All they did was point out that many things attributed to this great person (and no one said he was not great) and many others never were said by that person. Sometimes it is just a matter of paraphrasing what was really said or written by that person. However, often quotes are made up by to provide authority for a person's own ideals. After all, who would you believe, Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Mullin? I would go with Jefferson, myself.
Also, I saw nothing that denigrated the accomplishments or integrity of Thomas Jefferson. Rather, you might even consider that those exposing "spurious quotes" were protecting the integrity of Thomas Jefferson.
Jim, Maybe in "Fairness" we need to post 20 quotes from their guy Carl Marx to keep the lefty's happy? JUST KIDDING!
"We have nothing to fear from the demoralizing reasonings of some, if others are left free to demonstrate their errors and especially when the law stands ready to punish the first criminal act produced by the false reasonings; these are safer corrections than the conscience of the judge."
Attributed to Thomas Jefferson and quoted by Charles A. Beard, The Nation, July 7, 1926, vol. 123, p. 8.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address (March 4, 1801) states,
During the contest of opinion through which we have passed the animation of discussions and of exertions has sometimes worn an aspect which might impose on strangers unused to think freely and to speak and to write what they think; but this being now decided by the voice of the nation, announced according to the rules of the Constitution, all will, of course, arrange themselves under the will of the law, and unite in common efforts for the common good. All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression. Let us, then, fellow-citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions. During the throes and convulsions of the ancient world, during the agonizing spasms of infuriated man, seeking through blood and slaughter his long-lost liberty, it was not wonderful that the agitation of the billows should reach even this distant and peaceful shore; that this should be more felt and feared by some and less by others, and should divide opinions as to measures of safety. But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists. If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. I know, indeed, that some honest men fear that a republican government can not be strong, that this Government is not strong enough; but would the honest patriot, in the full tide of successful experiment, abandon a government which has so far kept us free and firm on the theoretic and visionary fear that this Government, the world's best hope, may by possibility want energy to preserve itself? I trust not. I believe this, on the contrary, the strongest Government on earth. I believe it the only one where every man, at the call of the law, would fly to the standard of the law, and would meet invasions of the public order as his own personal concern. Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
So, let us please remain civil to each other when presenting, or perhaps contesting, opposing views.
A good idea is good regardless of who said it. A person living today with a good idea is just as just as quote worthy as that of a "founding father" Likewise a poor idea is just as poor whether from a "founding father" than it would be today. I think that the situation of our early "fathers" was such that they were willing to give their lives to escape tyrany. I hope we can keep our liberties. They seem to be rapidly fading away.
Thomas Mullin. I guess what one chooses to see and how one sees it, all depends upon the frame of mind and core belief that one has adopted... that of the cynical left, or that of the patriotic Pro-America right. I guess everyone knows by now that I am of the latter.
When a man like Thomas Jefferson is attacked in such a way as to question every brilliant, patriotic quote attributed to him and then, chooses to attribute, to him, only one "verifiable" quote, as the one that states he enjoys sitting on the porch smoking hemp, I categorize that as an attempt to denigrate the man and minimize his contributions and accomplishments.
It is easy for anyone who has a notion to, to rewrite history and minimize past heroes to today's lower standards and expectations because those that want to minimize them just can't fathom that the men of 200 years ago were that much better, but they were and it is not fair to them to try and make them conform to today's minimal standards which are so far below what the men back then accomplished that we cannot even begin to compare with them.
Reminder: Snopes has been shown to be a leftist site with an agenda, so I would not trust or consult it. Jim Patrick
Not only was he a remarkable statesman, but he made a great tail light lens.
LOL! That was rich, Rich.
A lens into the past, good one Rich!
Actually, I went to www.Monticello.org to see what Jefferson said. I don't think they are a leftist group. Exposing fraudulent quotations is not attacking Jefferson but defending him from misrepresentation since he is not able to do that himself. As a matter of fact, they also dismiss the hemp quote. Jefferson grew hemp to make rope, a valuable crop. As they say on their web site, Jefferson didn't smoke tobacco and was unlikely to smoke hemp.
The very way you phrase your arguments show you don't believe them either. Otherwise you would not have to vilify those making opposing opinions. As I recall, that was a common trick of the Nazis, Senator McCarthy and other demagogues. Is there any reason to suppose those with contrary opinions are any less patriotic or pro-American than you are? The whole point of free speech is openly discuss matters of current interest. In that way, everyone gets a larger store of fact and opinion to work with. I found the Ethanol thread very enlightening as it brought out issues on both sides for everyone to gain from.
I agree that Jefferson was a great man and said a lot of great things. And If I KNEW every one of those quotes were truly quotes from Jefferson, I would be all about posting them. However, if even one of them was not, it casts doubt on the rest and gives the other side ammunition. It's kinda like when Fox gets a news story wrong. It just gives the mainstream media ammunition to use against them and people disregard everything else they have to say.
Why do folks who have a valid argument choose to discredit themselves with fake quotes and made-up "facts"? A perfect example is the widely circulated email to the effect that taxes are too high. It includes a long list of taxes and states that none of them existed a hundred years ago when there was no national debt. The list is padded by repeating several items under different names. It lies by claiming that none of the listed taxes existed a hundred years ago, which is obvious to a casual observer who remembers his high school history. It lies by claiming there was no national debt a hundred years ago. A little research shows that there has always been a national debt except for a brief period during the Jackson administration. Taxes may indeed be too high, and the author of that email could have presented facts supporting his valid argument, but instead chose to discredit himself with phony "facts". Disseminating fakery and attacking those who point out that it's fake does nothing to advance your argument. It does the opposite.
Factoids are like hemorrhoids and both should be treated as unwanted, unwelcome, and unnecessary to life.
You are all right. By my posting these mythical quotes that cannot be substantiated, I am guilty of perpetrating the myth of the man and disseminating false or questionable information. While I still choose to believe they are his beliefs and thus may have been like the things he would have said, I cannot prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt so should not have posted them. I apologize to anyone who I falsely accused of trying to destroy, discredit or minimize the man. By pointing out that he may not have said these quotes was the correct thing to do and I stand corrected. I guess I get a little too passionate when I perceive that the things dear to me are being attacked when that is not the case at all. Jim Patrick
O.K., I'll fess up. I made those quotes and I am just as important as Thomas Jefferson was. Therefore, you can consider them perfect in every way.
Funny, they must all be discredited as Jefferson's beliefs since they can't be proven yet the other side can make crap up, get caught, and still claim it to be true (Dan Rather).
Kinda like If you like your Doctor.......well you know the rest.
I consider myself a progressive left as opposed to the regressive right.
Never been to Monticello, but I understand it is quite the place. If I make it out east again I might be able to visit.
Someday I hope to take my Model T east to Plymouth Rock and drive west on the Yellowstone Trail all the way to Seattle. Or I could take the Lincoln Highway and make sure I had a rest stop at Rob's place.