I am planning an attack on my worn Springs, Shackles and Perches. My Early 1922 Touring has the Hassler Bee-Hive Shocks installed.
I have decided to go with Steel Bushings but had a question. My Perches have a washer between not only the Castle Nut and Radius Rod but also the Radius Rod and the Axle. Is this right?
The Washer next to the Castle Nut is very deformed and the Left Perch in this first picture looks bent but might just need a tightening.
What are the Correct Shackles for this setup. I have one L type on the Left (In the First Picture) and the Other Right side is the standard U Type.
There shouldn't need to be any washers where the perch nut holds the wishbone. Maybe the nut was loose for a long time and the parts got worn, then the washers was added to take up any slack that won't go away with tightening. Didn't know until today a special accessory spring was marketed for this problem.. the right way is repairing the worn parts or replacing them with better original parts. For a 1922 there would be no problem finding better parts.
The L type shackles was original equipment for 1922, U shaped shackles was used 1923-27, according to Bruce's encyclopedia: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/S-T.htm#sprshk
I don't think those washer belong on either top or bottom of the radius rod. Unless that wishbone is an early version of the under-the-axle type (which had a flat face on both the top and bottom of the "eye", those perch nuts should be tapered on the end that contacts the bottom of the wishbone. Helps keep it tightly butted against the axle just like a lug nut holds a wheel on a modern car.
The arrangement you have there could allow the wishbone to shift causing wear to the threaded end of the perch and to the eye of the wishbone. You'll find out when you take the front end apart. You may find that the perch isn't bent but the hole in the axle has worn oval from the perch working in that area.
Also looks like you're going to find that some of the shackle bushings are worn through and your shackles may be cutting into the perch and spring eyes in some cases.
Also, if you intend to keep the Hasslers, a lot of them wear out around that bolt with the grease cup which tends to take quite a beating too. Seems to me someone is making replacement bolts. I don't know if it's feasible or advisable to bush the worn holes in the Hasslers; probably depends on how bad they're worn.
You're smart to rebuild this assembly. Best of luck!
Additionally, the L style shackles are rebuildable for those who has weld and lathe access.
What I see is a worn out spring, worn out shackle, worn out perch. I will bet that the wishbone is also worn along with all the bolts in the Hasslers. One more thing, bet the axle holes for the spindle boles are worn too. Good luck, Dan
I too am getting ready to replace bushings. I ordered everything from Lang's I think I will need. Check out my current set up.
One interesting thing I wanted to note. On the bottom of my perch it seems I should have a nut with a cotter pin through it. But it appears on both sides this has been peened with a large hammer. It has no nut or cotter pin. It has a hole though it where you can put a pin, but from the peening there is no way this could come out. Thoughts on this? Has anyone ever seen this done?
I carry in stock the new Hassler bolts email@example.com
Rob: is the photo above of your runabout in your profile photo ? If so, a word of caution - find a reputable, knowledgeable, competent Model T hobbyist in your area to "safety" check your ride before driving it ! As a prior "safety" inspector for Model T Tours & Speedster activities for several local clubs, I see items in the photo that clearly could cause misfortune in both yourself, any passengers and/or your car.
The front axle assembly is damaged severely and the tie rod bolt showing in the photo is just that - a nut & bolt with no apparent "locking device" - please be cautious !
Rob - now it's time to fix it right after all the dubious shortcuts taken by earlier owners through the decades. Sounds like you should pull the rear axle too, who know what strange methods they may have used in there?
If you're lucky you can fix the threads on your perches - if you can grind off the peening without shortening the perches too much. I've rethreaded stripped threads with a slightly smaller millimeter thread, but that's what I'm forced to to save marginal parts over here in europe where parts are scarce - you should be able to easily find better parts for cheap in the US.
New perches are available from the vendors, but who knows if they're as good as original Ford steel? You can get good original parts from several of the guys posting here, and likely from someone local too, if you contact the nearest T club.. I see you're from Georgia - might be less far away to one of the MTFCI chapters in northern FL? http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15#F L
That is the down side of a castelled nut assembly they can be apparently tight with a pin inserted however can work loose or have never been tightened correctly from the installation and remain loose for ever and wear a component out because there are never retightened because they have a pin in them. It would require the pin to be removed, tightened to the next hole and a new pin inserted, this is almost never done. It appears that your wish bone has worked loose at one time and destroyed the threads therefore in desparation PO has peened the pearch to get by. A pearch can be very difficult to remove, I have had some pressed out that took nearly 50 tons to remove them, also I had a pair that would not come out even red hot with 20 - 30 tons and to remove them I had to cut the axle open and spread it to recover the pearch. I had another axle where the pearch was in crooked and had to be removed cleaned and reinserted and that took about 30 tons and red hot. I have also had some that fall out. I had a pearch with the thread warn so bad the wish bone was moving freely around and destroyed the threads to a point a nut could not be installed. I rethreaded the pearch the next size down but had to use a washer to make it fit tight. Pearches are left and right and it is very easy to install them incorrectly. They will go in backwards and they will tighten up but what a mess.
Rob: I would pull the whole front end out of your car and rebuild it. It appears you are going to have to do everything. Even the tie-rod bolts don't look correct. Good luck. Another thing, perhaps you can find another front axle with good perches in it, and rebuild that one.
Rob, Steve is correct. That car is dangerous in its present condition. Yes, the wishbone should be held to the perch by a large nut with a cotter pin to keep it in place. Getting those peened (ruined) perches out may be the job from Hell, but you need to replace them. Of course you want the axle off the car for that job. After you grind off the peening, the perches may come out easily, but probably not. Often they're stuck so tight that they're hard to remove without ruining them. In this case they appear to be already ruined.
A little on perch removal in general:
It might seem that just shoving them out with a shop press is a no-brainer. But if they're really stuck, as they often are, applying a few tons of force will just mushroom the ends. The cotter pin holes may even be squashed shut. Before pressing out a perch, cut a little piece of welding rod to fill the hole. Run a hex nut onto the threaded shaft, no closer to the axle than 1/4". That's all the space you need to allow for the perch to move. After that initial little movement the rest of the removal is easy. Add another nut, and turn the nuts together so they're tight. Keep adding nuts until the last one extends past the end of the shaft. The idea here is to apply the weight of the press all along the length of the threaded shaft so the end doesn't take the brunt of the attack, and the nuts should act as a container to keep the shaft from mushrooming. You can apply a penetrant (50/50 ATF/acetone is best), but if things are really rusted it may not penetrate.
Fortunately the cars we're discussing are from the years of peak production, and there are still a lot of good replacement parts.
I have ordered everything i need to rebuild the front end including the spring perches. Hopefully i can remove the old ones. The tie rod bolts are definitely incorrect, I have ordered those as well. Thanks for all the tips, I will take pictures of the rebuilding process and let you know how it goes.
Rob: If you need a spring or an axle, I am in B'ham and have them both. Dan
Dan, Thanks for the offer. I have a feeling a spring is going to be needed, mine looks awful tired. I will know for sure when I get the new bearings in.
Adam AND Rob et al,
Those are two of the worst front ends I have ever seen! (Other than a crash result)
It may be easier to get another, but they can probably be rebuilt just fine with only a few replacement parts beyond the usual.
I much prefer original spring perches and trust them better. If the beat down perch threads are not beaten too short, the threads can be repaired. If there is good thread near the base of the threading, I split a thread die and assemble it in place on the threads in a driver, socket, or die handle and thread from the bottom out. That way, you re-thread matching the original location of the surviving threads. Grind and/or file the mushrooming down to close to size. If left a little large, you can back off the die and file some more.
I also have welded up badly worn perches then ground them down to re-thread. I prefer that to going one size under-size. However, if I recall correctly, the original size is a nearly obsolete 9/16 and going down to 1/2 inch is not that big of a jump.
If a perch is repairable, I prefer to repair it in place rather than remove it. My luck removing perches has never been good. But I have repaired a dozen.
Some good news is that if a perch is worn beyond easy safe repair? 1919 through 1927 perches are easy to get good ones still. And better yet, if the old perch is no good? An easy cut, drill, and punch can remove the old perch no matter how stuck it is.
A thousand words of caution about repairing the top part of a spring perch.
A very good friend of mine did not know the car he bought had a "repaired" spring perch until this happened on an Endurance Run. It was a wild ride for him and his wonderful wife for a few seconds. But all ended just fine. (She still goes with him on the run)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Just thought I would kick this back to the top. Today I removed the entire front end from my T. I found some scary, scary stuff!! First off the radius rod ball that mounts under the engine was bolted with regular bolts and no safety wire. The tie rod ends had regular bolts with no cotter pins. The perches that I originally thought were peened over were actually welded to the radius rod and peened. I discovered some new words in the dictionary when removing the radius rod. I basically had to drill it out and finish it off with a large mallet. I have the axle loaded in the back of my truck to go to the machine shop to see if they can remove the perches from the axle. I am not sure if Thor's hammer can remove those. I will post some pictures tomorrow. One question, my spring pack has 8 leaf springs. you can see from my above picture the leaf spring actually rested on the front axle. I originally thought this was from wear on the spring perch bushings and worn shackles. Now I think my springs are tired or I have the wrong springs for my car. Any suggestions?
1918-1925 front springs are 7-leaf non-tapered. Main leaf drilled for oilers. From a look at the picture I'd say that the spring resting on the axle is because of the worn-through bushings and the worn shackle holes in the perches and bottom spring leaf. I haven't seen the shackles, but lots of wear there too wouldn't surprise me. Add all that wear together and you get the spring resting on the axle, whether it's tired or not. With that wear into the bottom spring leaf you want a replacement spring, or at least a replacement bottom leaf.
Rob its really hard to tell from the picture you have if the springs are serviceable and or if they are original or not. I can only refer you to my posts in "Bushings Steel or Brass" There I have a bunch of pictures of the front end disassembled and I am going to continue with my evaluation there with more pictures.
I have decided that I need a new bottom spring with serviceable holes to mount new bushings. I also noticed that my top spring leaf was broken in half. There are a few other questionable springs in the group so I might be replacing some more of them. I also needed new perches and a Spring Leaf Tie bolt. New shackles should top every thing off because mine were beyond worn.
We both have some of the most worn out front end parts around. I am glad to be fixing them. I have learned allot and let me know if you need any help. Were in the same boat.
Since my spring pack is 8 leaf does that mean my front end is an earlier or later model?
Not necessarily the whole front end (probably not), but the spring may be 26-27.
I noticed in Langs that they have a 26-27 spring that is an 8 leaf "low arch". Could my front end (perches and axles) be set up for a high arch and my springs are the low arch style? Would that cause the springs to rest on the front axle?
Spring Picture...This is what I am talking about with it resting on the axle. Based on the wear in the axle and spring it has been like this for a LONG time.
Rob: That could be but, that is not what worries me. I am looking at the wear in the spring hole that the bushing goes in. The eye in the spring looks worn out to me. Dan
Here are a few pictures after the tear down.
I have seen perches where the bushing has worn completely through and the perch itself is worn. If that's the case, look for a better set of perches. It's less likely that the spring will wear through because it is spring steel and harder. Usually the shackle will take most of the wear. Anyway check both the perch and spring for excessive wear. If you are lucky the new bushings and shackles are all you need.
Check the ball on the wishbone too. It should be tight. Just loose enough to move when the axle moves but not up or down movement in the socket. The tire rod ends should also have good bushings and bolts and the spindle bolts between the axle and spindle. Also the ball joints at each end of the drag link should be snug. If all these things are tight, and your castor and camber are correct, you should have a smooth steering car without shimmy or pull to the side. It is also a good idea to check the bushing in the steering bracket where it mounts to the frame and replace if it is loose and check the gears in the steering box under the steering wheel.
All the above should be in good condition for a driver car even if you don't restore the body at this time.
I could go on to talk about the wheels and tires too, but one thing at a time.
What's the deal with the tie rod? Doesn't look standard? Where it connects to the pitman arm I would have a look at that also.
Wow Rob, there has to something wrong with some of those parts not being correct.
Your parts look allot better than mine in all accounts. My lower spring end were worn way past the hole. So we're my perches. Your shackles don't look horrible either in the pictures. They may be bad but not horrible, where they have worn almost square looking like mine. I really expected to see your parts worse off than this. Maybe it was because of my hassles but my spring was no where near touching the axle.
Allot of these guys and gals more knowledgeable than myself, should be able to set you up with the correct parts but my guess is something is not correct.
"Could my front end (perches and axles) be set up for a high arch and my springs are the low arch style? Would that cause the springs to rest on the front axle?"
No. The reason is as I explained above (11:07). It has nothing to do with high arch, low arch, or no arch. It has to do with all those worn out parts. Now that I see the shackles, I can add them to the list.
The steering gear connecting rod (drag link) for your car is #2725B. What you have isn't it. There's a picture of #2725C, which looks about the same, on page six in the 8-25-28 Ford parts book.
Thanks Steve I meant to say drag link vs. tie rod.
It looks like something that was cobbled together???
Rob: You need to make a road trip to B'ham. Too bad you did not go to Moultrie a few weeks ago. I had all that steering stuff there. Dan
I am beginning to think you are right...not sure what parts I have, but they appear to be incorrect. On a good note I did finally get the perches out of the axle (help from a machine shop). My axle is straight and not bent. I will fit the new perches in the next few days to see how they look. I am thinking I may hold off on installing the springs and steering linkage until I can make that trip to B'ham...
I went through a similar situation with my 16 coupelet. Front end was thrashed, don't understand how my g'pa could drive the car in such a poor state. But luckily Langs had all the parts I needed to restore it back to factory specs.
I was amazed at how good the steering feels with all new parts fitting properly together.
A new taper leaf front spring was in order for my car, kinda pricey but in the end I felt it was the right course to return the car back to its proper state.
Since you have your front ends completely disassembled, remember that perches are left and right, and, after installed, it's easy to put the axle together backwards. Keep everything oriented correctly as you reassemble, and just because you took it apart that way doesn't mean it was right--especially the one with the hasslers with the perches facing out!
The Perches on the Hasslers in my pictures were correctly positioned. The boss is to the back providing the proper caster for the front axle and they face to the outside when installing the Hassler Accessory Shock Package.
Ok guys I wanted to bring this back to the top. It appears I have one good spindle and one that is slightly worn (insert sarcasm here). See my pictures. Is the good spindle good enough? Thanks,
This is not an uncommon result of poor/no maintenance on the front ball bearings race assemblies or roller assemblies. They can cut right through the spindle. Frequently ball bearing assemblies get wrongfully blamed for failures when there is no maintenance. Some early roller replacements were less than successful because the ends of the roller stuck out and were susceptible to contaminants. Later hubs were altered to fit rollers. The original wheel assemblies were designed for ball bearings and they were adequate if properly maintained with new felts and re-packed with good quality grease, (but this was mostly never done) and they were falsely blamed for the failures.
Which is the good one? As easy-to-find as spindles are, I'd replace both. Second best would be to fill the worn areas and turn them down on a lathe.
Steve how would one repair the cuts to a spindle like that? Weld them up and turn them back down?
What would be the process for welding?
I don't care if those spindles are from a 1909, I would not go around the block on them.
Nobody will ever accuse me of being a good welder, but I'd use a #3 tip and melt on enough rods to overfill the worn places, then turn it down on a lathe. But note that I said that's second best. It's a distant second. My first choice, by a mile, would be to get better ones.
My day job is mostly risk management. Single point failure is at the top of the list. Any repair to a single point failure item such as a front wheel spindle makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. If a mechanical engineer signed off on this repair I still would try to find original defect free parts. There are to many ways that kind of repair could go bad. Even more for weld repairs done without documented control processes. That being said we all have to know that we are driving cars built 100 + years ago and we all have to assume some responsibility for what we are doing. We all are one point away from having no brakes if the key on the pinion shears or the thrust washer fails. Life in the slow lane still has risks. Lets all make sure we have reduced the risks to a minimum.
Rob,I have a bucket full of spindles and will be glad to give you a couple ,if you pay the postage.
My day job is in aerospace, we'll scrap out thousands of dollars in components for .001" out of print tolerance. Your spindles are more then .001" out, replace with good.
Rob, don't pitch that worn out spindle. It would make a great wheel painting jig along with some worn out bearings! Dave
Philip, "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect." And I would say that sea travel is more unforgiving than land travel.
If you have ever worked on or with a legacy aircraft, things that used to get scrapped back when it was new would be considered excellent and easily re-worked now. Everybody's T is either over 100 years old or about to be, next May mine will turn 100.
I've seen it said on this board more than once that even just 20, 30 years ago posters on the board had thrown away things that they could only imagine being able to find now. I'm definitely not part of the "never throw away anything Model T ever" crowd, but both of those spindles could be fixed up and used again. And 20 years from now somebody will bemoan the lack of available spindles and/or poor reproductions available.
I'm with Jack - I also have multitudes of good spindles - no cost but the shipping.
Those should be scrapped. I would not even consider those for a trailer as they could fail there also possibly causing an accident - not worth the risk !