......would be something they would look forward to?
Certainly not me, 30 to 40 years ago. In high school and college, the only way to get me to the library was if a teacher or professor ordered it (unless of course, we're talking about the "Library Lounge, 70th a A streets, Lincoln NE, but that's an entirely different story for another time).
I found a microfilm at Emory College in Georgia, and then learned that there is a "interlibrary loan program" where I may request a resource, pay postage, and they will ship it to an approved library near me.
How great is that? So, it's off to the library to look for another "needle in a haystack." Had I known about these resources in college, it may have taken a few years less to graduate.
Archie Butt is certainly interesting. A newspaper reporter who gained an appointment as a lieutenant, eventually serving (among other places) in the Philippines, and later aide de camp to Presidents Roosevelt and Taft, then being killed when the Titanic sunk.
He is frequently photographed with the various politicians he runs around with, including of course the one time he rode in a Model K, which no doubt got Rob exited about him.
I would say he is much more noted for his other endeavours.
Very interesting he was on the Titanic. Speaking of the Titanic I wonder what type of cars were on it when it went down if any.
Also wonder if he's part of the Butt family down here in Texas. There are several large food stores with the Butt name.
The founders name is Howard E. Butt.
The stores are H.E.B.
They just finshed another big one in Waco.
I feel liked I'm being "cyber-stalked".........
Royce, it took you 15 minutes. Not a record, but(t) fast...
There was a 1912 Renault Type CB Coupe de Ville, was purchased in Europe by William Carter of Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania, who was travelling with it and his family. It’s presence on Titanic confirmed as well as it can be by an entry on the ship’s cargo manifest, as well as a $5,000 claim made on it with the Lloyd’s of London insurance company after the disaster, which Carter and his wife and two children survived.
Made famous by the love scene in the movie.....
A few days ago you posted (on a thread I began, of course):
So, if not Wikipedia and newspapers, how did you find the info about Archibald, in fifteen minutes? Innate intelligence, clairvoyance? Just curious (as I do it the old fashioned way, looking it up).
Rob, Check this out on Archie Butt, Hero of the Titanic:
What I'm "sorting through" are Captain Butt's personal papers, compliments Emory Univ., GA. Captain (later Maj) Butt was a personal aide of Presidents Roosevelt and Taft. President Taft and Capt. Butt were in constant contact during the Taft Presidency, and he (Butt) became a trusted advisor.
By the way, I have no knowledge that Captain Butt ever rode in a Ford Model K, so Royce, if you know of a photograph or document saying that Butt did (as you stated above) would you please post it?
My understanding is that Pres. Taft was very hopeful that when Major Butt returned from Europe he would be able to smooth over some of the disagreements he and TR were having. Archie being a trusted friend of both men. Roosevelt was gearing up for his "Bull Moose" run for the White House and Taft was hoping Archie could help talk him out of it.
We all know what happened.
I don't recall if his body was recovered??
I searched Bing images, which led me to the picture of the memorial plaque and dozens of pictures of Butts usually with a politician on his side.
I don't use Wikipedia except as a good example of a bad example.
As the above blog states, Archie Butts, was on good terms with Roosevelt and Taft. Exhausted and in poor health from being caught in the middle between the TR vs Taft feud, he asked for a leave of absence to go on a six week European tour with his longtime companion, artist Francis (Frank) Davis Millet. It was on his way back from this tour aboard the Titanic that he and his companion perished...Jim Patrick
Off on a tangent. I am looking for a specific item, however keep finding fascinating tidbits in these papers.
In this letter, Captain Butts mentions a move to have the Battle Hymn of the Republic declared the National Anthem:
And a discussion about the possibility of President Roosevelt's hand picked choice as the next President, Secretary Taft, losing to William Jennings Bryan (from Nebraska, no less):
This thread brings up a question for you.
What method or service do you use to search old newspapers? Is there a cost for the service?
I have went though our local library to access an online service called "Access Newspaper Archive" and it gives good results for the old newspapers included. However it does not include many old newspapers and some of those not included are ones that you have referenced in your research. For example, the early Detroit Free Press is not included.
Thanks for any help,
I use the Library of Congress, and also have subscribed to a few like "Genealogy.com" and "Ancestry.com". So far, the Detroit Free Press articles I've found aren't free. They are a pay by article by an archive service. The problem is, you are not able to see the article, and you must either buy an expensive month/several month/ or yearly subscription, or pay per article. When you pay by article, you only see a title, or short description before deciding if you should buy it or not.
Just reading a letter from Julia Ward Howe to Captain Butt about her writing the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" poem. She is writing him in regard to President Roosevelt being credited with the push to make the "Battle Hymn" the national anthem.
More useless OT trivia: Born in May 1819, Julia Ward Howe wrote the Battle Hymn of the Republic in November, 1861 at the age of 42 when someone suggested she write new words to John Brown's Body and it was first published in February, 1862. She died in October, 1910 at the age of 91 which made her 89 when the above letter was written. Jim Patrick
Not useless at all. This is what gives us all a "common identity" (my term). Julia Ward Howe was born only a few years after the War of 1812. She is corresponding with a man who is a personal aide to two of the first Presidents of the 20th century.
My father was born ten years after the Titanic, where Mr. Butt perished. We all have "threads" that unite us to the past, and a common history. Oh, and we drive old cars too.
Now, back to the microfilm......
"He is frequently photographed with the various politicians he runs around with, including of course the one time he rode in a Model K, which no doubt got Rob exited about him."
Where? Where is this photograph of Captain Butts "the time he rode in a Model K"?
Also, if you searched "Bing", the first listing is........Wikipedia So searching "Bing" is different in what way?
I just suspect that there's a Model K involved when you suddenly have an interest in Archie.
We do know it is Major Butt and the President in this picture of the presidential White touring.
"I just suspect that there's a Model K involved when you suddenly have an interest in Archie"
You know nothing of my motives or what drives me. Meanwhile, do not post inaccurate information on a thread I started to appear "all knowing."
The only thing worse than someone who knows everything is someone who thinks they know everything.
Gee Rob, I don't claim to know everything. Maybe you need a nap or something? Seems you are all wrapped around the axle today....
This is Katherine Butt Warren (Kate), Archibald Butt's sister, my Great Great Grandmother.
I think there were brother's too! There were the triplets Big,Red,and Thore!! Sorry,i coulden't help myself!! Bud.
Rob, I fall into the third category. "Someone who knows a little about a lot, not always correct and not ever afraid to admit it..." Jim Patrick
Thanks for the tips on searching old newspapers. I think a person could spend a lifetime with the amount of information that is out there.
The microfilm I ordered is of Major Butt's private letters. Many are to a sister in law, Clara, and some to his mother:
What I'm looking for, essentially, is corroboration of the following, taken from a collection of manuscripts:
I have found confirmation that representatives of Congress, in December 1908, agree that Congress would appropriate $12,000 to President elect Taft as he intended to have his administration become the first motorized Presidency.
The conversation listed above was supposed to have taken place in mid December 1908. I have two other sources (books) that corroborate that Aide Butt recommended that the Taft's choose two "Ford Sixes" at $2800 apiece as the official White House vehicles to stay within budget.
While Mrs. Taft apparently shot the idea down quickly, it is intriguing that the man who is the chief personal aide to two Presidents suggests the Ford Sixes be chosen. Were I to at some point put together a story of the Model K, the "Taft connection" would provide a chapter.
In addition to this connection, William Howard Taft had two other "brushes" with the Model K (that I'm aware of). First, as a visiting Secretary of War to Oklahoma City in 1907 where we have numerous photos and stories as Secretary Taft is ushered around Oklahoma City in a Model K.
Thirdly, in addition to the information above, we have the start of the Ocean to Ocean Race in June 1909. At that time, newly inaugurated President Taft sends a wire from Washington D.C., electronically signaling the beginning of the Seattle-Yokon-Pacific Exposition in Seattle and starting the Ocean To Ocean Race from New York. This chain of events, triggered by President Taft, begins the race. And the lead vehicle in the procession out of Central Park? Racemaster J. H. Gerrie led the racers away from New York, with Ford Model Ts numbers 1 and 2, followed by the Acme, Shawmut and Itala. The car leading the procession with Racemaster Gerrie riding, a Model K (with Henry Ford in the crowd, and the Model K owned by Ford dealer F. W. Teves).
Besides the coincidences of a Ford Model K being involved at three different points in William Howard Taft's political career, these are all unique examples of how intertwined in everyday life the Ford Model K became over the short time the car was produced.
History tells us the Ford Six was an obscure failure. The hundreds of instances where the car appears in everyday news stories, competitions and almost becoming the first Presidential car suggest otherwise.
As always, my opinions,
And as always Rob, your opinions are appreciated!!
It is obvious Mrs. Taft had no question in her mind whether a Ford was the equal of a Pierce, or a White, or even a Baker electric. She dismisses the idea of a Ford in the White House fleet adamantly. She wanted elegant automobiles. Of course the Pierce outsold the Ford six by a wide margin. Any Pierce was a better car than a Ford K.
With Ford operatives pestering the press nearly incessantly there are a lot of newspaper stories, interesting as they are, but the results remain what they are.
I don't agree with that Royce, I think she was just being a typical female, if it cost more it must be better!!
Something to ponder.
The Presidential election was November 3, 1908. Taft was inaugurated on March 4, 1909.
According to the February 25, 1909 edition of Motor Age, the White Steamer was delivered the same week (the week of February 21). I presume it was a 1909 model. The first Pierce Arrow (the limo) was apparently also delivered sometime in February.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GSQfAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA6-PA11&lpg=RA6-PA11&dq=%22wil liam+howard+taft%22+%22white+steamer%22&source=bl&ots=jBidog05WQ&sig=or6_KXS9dno YWUETBnXMi6rEb7E&hl=en&sa=X&ei=i8SiUpqODcPr2AXHsYHAAw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBzge#v=onepag e&q=%22william%20howard%20taft%22%20%22white%20steamer%22&f=false
If someone recommended purchasing a Model K Ford in November or December of 1908 or January or February of 1909, it would have been "last year's model" (1908). I understand that 1908 Model Ks were sold in Ford Motor Company's fiscal 1909 year but I don't know if Ford's 1909 fiscal year coincided with the calendar year.
Also, one has to consider Taft's physique. A Model K Ford literally may not have been a good fit for him.
Kerry, thank you.
Royce, get a Pierce.
I know you post on most of my threads, too bad you don't bother to read them. In 1907 Ford Model K sold 457 cars, the top selling year for the model. The same year, Pierce sold three models, two six cylinder and a four cylinder model. In the book "Standard Catalog of American Cars, Beverly Rae Kimes and Henry Austin Clark Jr. write Pierce sold 1200 cars, TOTAL. That's an average of 400 per model. How is this a better selling car (Ford sold three models, with over 8000 cars sold)?
I posted this yesterday:
Of course Mrs. Taft wanted Pierces. However, with a budget of $12,000 (including garage, driver, etc) Aide Butt had to recommend a large, good car that fit the budget. THAT'S THE POINT! The 1907 big Pierce cost $6000. I don't know what the 1909 model cost but I'm sure it was still substantial.
Ultimately she had her way. However, Captain Butt said in his letters (that I spent yesterday afternoon reading) car makers were hounding him to sell at lower than list prices if they could advertise the fact the President chose their car.
And they did:
Erik, more to follow on your post (no surprise )
I appreciate your thoughtful (yet challenging) questions.
I was as surprised as you or anyone might be when I read these reports. However, they were reported as such.
As for Mr.Taft's "size". I suspect while his proportions seemed large in 1907-1912, by todays standards not so much. Anyway, Mr. Taft's affinity for White steamers developed while riding in President Roosevelt's White steamer in the 1907 time frame (photo below) according to at least one book on Presidential automobiles (I don't have the reference at my fingertips at this moment):
I believe the Roosevelt car pictured below is a 1907 White Model G (with seven passenger Pullman body, I think).
The Model G had a 114 inch wheelbase. The Model K had a 120 inch wheelbase, so comparable (the longer K hood probably meant similar passenger room, although the photo seems to look a little shorter and taller than the 1907/08 K in the passenger area).
We also know from the Oklahoma City stories and photographs, both Mr. And Mrs. Taft (she was on the trip too) rode in and were familiar with the Model K by August of 1907.
As we now know, Ford was "finishing up" sales of Model K by December 1908 when these discussions were happening. The Archibald Butt papers I looked at yesterday made several Presidential automobile purchase references on December 7th through the 12th, 1908.
Ford would sell at least 42 Model Ks in Fiscal Year 1909 (Ford Audit Report, FY 1909) as they (Ford) finished selling the last of the 1000 Model K cars initially contracted for. The fiscal year ran October 1 1908 through September 31 1909. Below is an example of a Ford advertisement still selling Model K in 1909, (dated March 14, 1909). Notice the K ad says "7 passenger". The interior of a Model K is very roomy, and they were advertised as 7 passenger when equipped with jump seats:
I have a few more odds and ends to post to this that can wait till later today. I think the Ford six was recognized as an inexpensive, "big luxury car" of the day (sounds like a common Henry Ford theme, best value in it's class).
This story, along with other evidence (such as being picked 5th from over 100 cars chosen in a Motor Magazine contest in 1907, and setting a world endurance record in the summer of 1907) are more indicators the Ford Model K was a well known, popular car during it's production period, contrary to many historical accounts.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it,
Announcement by both Pierce and White about the sale to the President (on the same page, same issue):
And specs. The White Model M has a similar wheelbase 122 in.) to the Ford Model K (120 in.):
Indeed, even though Ford only placed a single order for 1000 Model K chassis in January 1906, they still had not been able to sell them all by the beginning of 1909. A thousand Model K chassis should have been delivered to Ford by Dodge Brothers within 90 - 180 days from the date of order.
Can you imagine how much floor space was being wasted at Piquette, and later at the former Ford Manufacturing plant, by all the hundreds of unsold Model K's over that span of time? Model K chassis that had been purchased in FY 1906 still on hand in 1909 were hopelessly outdated mechanically compared to a 48 HP (or any other) Pierce.
The steam car was in its last days by 1909. Very difficult to maintain, and needing 20 - 30 minutes to make steam before driving, they just were not practical power plants.
The Pierce Arrow was the choice of presidents from Taft through FDR. There was always a Pierce in the White House fleet until about 1940 when the last Pierce Arrows were replaced by Cadillac convertible sedans. I spent much of my free time from 1976 - 1998 maintaining the largest collection of Pierce Arrows, and am quite impressed by their superb engineering and quality. If I could ever afford one I would love to own one.
Dodge brothers didn't deliver 1000 Model K shams sis to Ford on March 1 (choose a date) and say "here you go". Just as Ford Manufacturing didn't deliver 10,000 Model N chassis at Piquet on July 15 1906. The Ford directors specified timetables for all contracted component deliveries, all the way back to the Model A. Piquet couldn't have contained all the tires alone for the approximate 15,000 models K, N, R & S that Ford produced over this time span.
Let's use a bit of (not so) common sense instead of knee jerk unsupported assumptions to make an argument.
These are simplistic assumptions not qualified for serious answers.
As for the 48 hp Pierce vs. the 45 (Pierce used the A.LA.M. Method to rate hp. Applying the same formula to Ford's K engine would make it about 45 hp). Apply the Pierce horsepower to weight ratio to a Model K. No comparison, the K is much lighter, with a better hp to weight ratio than almost any other big car of the era.
Industry leaders, Presidents, Kings, Maharajahs, Sheiks, and potentates of many other descriptions did not pick Pierce Arrow over Ford based on the power to weight ratio. That is a ludicrous argument.
The Pierce (and later the Pierce Arrow) was the premier brand, the highest quality car, the best you could buy at any price. Its reliability and silence of operation was legendary. The Model K with its cheap car two speed planetary transmission and individual cast cylinders was hopelessly outclassed by any Pierce made in the era.
As was the Model T "outclassed by any Pierce made in the era." What is your point? You seem to have an insatiable need to be on every thread I author.
Hey Royce...why don't you start an interesting thread of you own instead of posting all this negative stuff on other threads?
The difference being that the Model T - like the Pierce - as a product led the entire market segment of cars in its price class. Meanwhile the Ford Model K was (at best) tenth or twelfth among dozens of competitors in its market segment.
Dang guys. I can appreciate a Model K for exactly what it is. It doesn't have to be better than a Pierce. It doesn't have to be worse. It is indeed different. I'd love to own one.I'm a Ford man. Old and new. The K is a century old Ford and that's enough reason to have an appreciation.
OK Royce. You win! YOUR THE SMARTEST, MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE FELLOW OUT THERE . NOW, IT'S YOUR THREAD. RUN WITH IT, ENJOY, YOUR THE BEST!
Bob, thanks, but enough is enough.
But what gets me is you folks can dig up stuff from a 100 years ago from newspapers and such.
After my accident in 2005 I hunted on the net and everywhere else trying to find the newspaper paragraph on it and still to this day aint seen it.Although from my understanding some folks I bought T parts from in Va saw it on the tv news 500 miles away.
I have also tried several times to find the newspaper articals on my grandfathers wreck with a steam locomotive in or near gastonia nc back in the 40's
? what gives?
Post or send me as much info as possible about the events and I can look. The more details you have like names, dates, locations and what happened the better.
Just as a guess I searched for Cole - train - auto - wreck in the range of 1940 to 1950 in the Gastonia Daily Gazette an got 558 results.
Wwll the train was some type of high speed non stop passenger train.Had a popular name but I cant think of it now.He was pulling a trailer with a older chain drive truck.He was in a alley type area and limited visablity. His truck made it but the train got the trailer.
His name would be Mack Cole.
my wreck was october 16th 2005 at about 3 am involved a tractor trailer hauling coffee and a pickup in front of Lowes motor speedway ,near Concord-Charlotte on US 29.
Pashcel or something like that ,truck lines.Driver was from GA
OK not meaning to hijack,
The train that hit grandpal was the Cresent limited, in 1940 in Gastonia NC. Truck was owned by Moss trucking company hauling mill machinary.
Drivers name Mack Cole
I may be wrong on the chain drive as I remember he drove a chain drive Mack but that was probably earlyer in life.
I found it. Reported in the Gastonia Daily Gazette Saturday, November 9, 1940, Gastonia, North Carolina
I have not found anything no the 2005 accident yet.
Great "detective" work.
No wonder I didnt have any luck they miss spelled his last name!
WOW<Do you relize I have been looking for that since I got a computer in 1999?
Grandpa died in 1970 when I was 3
so I dont remember him but I have his 61 tbird if I ever get the funds to refurbish it.
THank you sir for your time and effort!