Cleaned up my oil pan to get it ready to ship out and have it straightened and discovered that one of the engine mounts is cracked. Is this a simple weld it up and you're done thing or should I look for another pan?
Pictures would be extremely helpful in getting the board to assess your situation. =)
It is very common to find them with welded repairs to the ears, which sustained the most metal fatigue of just about any other part on the car from all the weight it supported and all the vibration it endured. When I stripped the black paint off mine, I found where it had been extensively brazed. Jim Patrick
The ears are all brazed to the pan in addition to the rivets. They slopped braze all around making it hard to,change the ears if they need to be replaced but it can be done with enough heat. Depending on where the crack is and how big it is the easiest thing would be to weld it up. I had a beautiful straight early pan that had been torched out of a frame by some idiot. I was able to get what was left of,the arms off and braze/rivet replacement arms on but it was a lot of work.
Note; Welding and brazing are NOT the same thing!
If the crack is not too big, first, clean and weld the crack. Then clean and braze a "bridge" or "gusset" across the welded crack.
You need to make certain that the "weld" is not contaminated by ANY trace of previous brazing material (any contamination "poisons" the weld and it will be VERY weak).
Welding, unless you are a master at re-annealing, leaves a hardened stress point in an area that cracked previously because it is a high stress and flex area. Brazing a gusset or bridge across the weld spreads the stress out with tapered or softer points. Bridges or gussets should be a minimum of 1/2 inch on each side of the weld, a full inch would be better. What you braze into place varies by the size and location of the crack repair. Usually 1/16 inch thick strap steel or 1/4 steel rod works very well. It can usually be done so that it almost cannot be seen once the pan is installed in the car.
My opinion based upon my years of training and experiences. Better welders may have better opinions. (Which may be better if you have a skilled welder to match)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Then: What is "welding" and what is "brazing"?
Welding is joining two of the same metals. They are fused together by melting. Brazing has no penetration and works like solder, sort of a metal glue for lack of a better explanation.
Craig, you don't say exactly where the crack is. Often the crack is at the rightangled bend where the mounting meets the frame top. An entirely satisfactory and unseen way to correct and strengthen this area is to bend two pieces of 5/16" rod to fit under the ear in the groove and weld or bronze these in place. The weld will repair the crack and the rod will give added strength at that stress point.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
While you are it braze the rivets on the inside of the pan to preclude oil leaks.
Wayne, didn't you give us some lessons once on the finer points of body work and stretching and shrinking sheet steel? If you are that person, I remember how interesting that thread was. Don't you also give classes on various steel and body working techniques? If you think about it, next time you give a class, video tape it. I'd sure like the benefit of your knowledge. Jim Patrick
I have always thought that brazing is using brass and welding is steel either arc or wire? I have done many and every surface is different?
Not me Jim P! When it comes to bodywork, I am somewhat of a hack! I can fix almost anything because I have enough skill to make something work and am too stubborn to not get it done. Usually my finished product is "less than show quality".
Now James Starkey has been getting some training and equipment to do nice work with sheet metal. Several motorcycle restorations he has done in the past were incredible. Now that he is well trained in the finer arts of welding (better than I ever was) and getting some major panel shaping equipment set up and working, he should soon be able to build a whole custom body and fenders for almost any vintage car.
I have been doing more wood work for early bodies lately. Maybe I should tackle that 1910 or '11 I want but cannot afford?
Good luck with your pan! It should be an easy fix. And it is wonderful to find it now before the pan has been straightened and bolted into the chassis.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Get the crack arc welded by a competent welder, and you are set to go.
Where there is brass or solder you CANNOT weld there!!!
So please don't even try.
Brazing is adhesion and is held only by capillary action. Welding is the melting as noted correctly above called cohesion. The capillary action makes the molecules expand and if fluxed properly the brass seeps into those spaces. Cooling causes those molecules to close in and around the brass holding it really tightly. When you reheat any steel or iron that brass, dissimilar metal, oozes out and weakens any welding done to the part. Causing the repair to crack or break apart. No tinsel strength. The correct way to repair any brazed joint is with more brass in cross section OR cut out completely the parts with brass and reweld in new steel. Then finding a good pan hanger and re riveting it into the repaired pan. Then using a rosebud and plenty of acid flux resolder it in. Try to not apply the flame to the area being repaired. Back heat it.
I know this sounds crazy but it is the way it is. Do NOT mix the brass with any steel welding filler!
I am SURE that someone WILL disagree with this but this is the way it is. You might well have burned out enough brass to get a steel weld to seem well enough and you may have gotten by with it. Usually not. I had to learn this the hard way racing and also bike riding.
When you braze brass you are welding brass! (Not adhesion).
I don't think the brazing holds anything, the ears are rivited and the brass is there to prevent oil leaks around the rivets. In some of these cars in their early life they were put through elevated stress eg where a Ruckstell was installed and the car was required to push a little harder than normal and the oil pan wings were a point of additional stress. If an additional brace was fabricated from the engine to the frame may have reduced the possibility the failures.
Having taken ears off of pans I can tell you that those ears are brazed on to the pan and not just to stop leaks from the rivets.