Gasoline shutoff - an alternate approach

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Gasoline shutoff - an alternate approach
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 10:37 pm:

I never liked the idea of a gasoline shutoff in the engine compartment. Always seemed too hard to get to in the event of an engine fire.

When I had the floorboards out the other day I took a few pictures of a possible solution to that problem. A modern ball valve is mounted on the frame below the passenger floorboard. A small slot in the floorboard allows a screwdriver to be poked through the slot and the valve lever swiveled to the on/off position. The floorboard slot is hidden by a floormat, so the whole thing is not visible. Only takes a few seconds to bend back the corner of the mat and use the screwdriver (stored a few inches away) to turn the gas on/off. Saves lifting the hood too. Of course a screwdriver must always be kept close by or the shutoff is worthless.

If I were doing it again I would make the floorboard slot a lot smaller.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 10:58 pm:

Bud, a neat idea, but please tell me that the rubber fuel line will be replaced with a steel one....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 11:21 pm:

hope that is not a copper line


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, December 09, 2013 - 11:24 pm:

I like the arrow on the fuel line
It tells the fuel which way to flow! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 02:27 am:

Problem is Fred, the arrow needs to be on the inside of the line because the gas can't see it where it is. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 05:04 am:

Steve,
What's wrong with a copper fuel line? That's what I've got.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - Trenton, New Jersey on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 06:24 am:

Its a great idea, but if you have a fire the rubber line isnt going to last. I have two shut off's, One on the carb and the other on the tank. In the event of a fire theres not much your going to be able to with a gas fire other than to sit back and watch your toy go up in flames.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 06:41 am:

Copper become brittle and can crack creating leaks. As suggested in past posts steel brake line works well and is not that difficult to shape with a tubing bender.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 07:19 am:

John
As Dennis has hinted, copper will work harden. Copper should only be used in static applications like a house. Vibration is a copper killer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:10 am:

Bud I like your idea, but if your "T" is anything like mine tools always get moved. a suggestion why not drill a small hole in the ball valve lever then thread a small cable or some such through the hole then up through the floor board and attach it to a to a Key ring. that would lay flat under the mat and rather than looking for a screwdriver just pull up on the key ring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:18 am:

NiCopp brake/fuel line, is a seamless copper nickel alloy tubing DOT approved , and can be used for fuel applications. Used to replace steel lines in brake, fuel and transmission systems. The hardware store variety will work harden and break in the long or short run.

http://www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/nicopp/11


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:21 am:

You could make an extension so that a small, elegant brass handle is right there above the floor, that way you could just turn it on and off by hand whenever you wanted without needing a tool.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 09:59 am:

Beat Yer Brains Out Dept: Your idea is basicly sound Bud. The copper line isn't subjected to extreme vibration so I not worried about that. I don't care for the look or dependability of a neporene line. If you replace it please use steel. It'll cook from the heat of the pipe for sure. Perhaps a tin foil wrap around it in the exhaust pipe area would help. Also GR's suggestion is a good one. The faster you can get to the valve the better especially since it's there for an emergency situation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 10:01 am:

Seth: Thought about that but it would be something to step on when getting in/out of the car. Good idea if I could make it work. Would prefer it because there would be no need to keep a screwdriver nearby.

Doug: Tried to put the arrow on the inside of the fuel line but had a tough time finding a pen that would reach. Also tried drilling a hole so I could poke the pen through the hole and draw the arrow, but this led to rapid fuel consumption. ;o)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 10:19 am:

On the MTFCI tour a few years ago a fellow lost his T totally to a fire that started ostensibly from a rubber fuel line link to the motor from the fuel line. It was a cute roadster pickup. Maybe someone else will have more details on what he did but the MTFCI was talking about adding rubber hose as a no-no to their vehicle inspection list but that never got beyond the discussion phase. Lots of opinions but I think the basic danger is that the exhaust is right there and if the rubber line splits or clamp comes loose the fire has a real chance to get going big time due to the proximity of the hot exhaust and raw gas just dumping directly onto the fire. I have to say that if the T does catch fire, safe your family and yourself as your highest priority. I love my T but people are way more important.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 10:29 am:

I have a shutoff valve at the carb inlet but I never use it because it is so hard to turn by hand. Maybe I'll change my tune when I get older (I'm a sprightly 57), but I don't mind getting under the car to turn the gas on & off at the sediment bulb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 10:34 am:

While we are on the subject of gas fires - GET A FIRE EXTINGUISHER IF YOU DON'T HAVE ONE!!!

I have a 5.5 lb (with a hose) that sits on the floorboard beside me. My passenger just has to deal with because I require that it be instantly available. Fortunately, due to the way the seat and floor is, it really get in the way, it just takes up the little space there is for a jacket or purse. I really like having it right there instead of the box on the back because just getting out of the car and using the extinguisher will take a relative eternity.

Right now I have a plastic handled one, but after payday I will have a nice Amerex with a metal handle. The plastic one will on in the box and be available as a loner on tours for someone who isn't carrying one. I don't have the disposable income that a lot you older guys have, but a solid 5.5 lb extinguisher is like $26 at Walmart. That's just way too affordable for there not to be one in EVERYONE's T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 10:35 am:

Sorry, meant to say the extinguisher "does NOT really get in the way."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 11:10 am:

Unfortunately, I have not found a modern valve which will last longer than a year. They get so hard to turn you need a pliars to turn. What's wrong with crawling under the car to turn off the gas? I do use a modern valve at the carburetor for regularly turning off the gas when the car is out of operation, but I need to replace the valve about every year or so. So I keep the original valve under the car for times when I can't turn the modern valve or for when I replace it. It is also needed when you work on the carburetor. So far I haven't had a car fire, but if I do, I am not going to worry about turning off the gas. Just get away from the car and call the fire department.
Norm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 11:26 am:

Hey Norman, definitely have a fire extinguisher. By the time the fire department gets there the fire will probably be done because it will have utterly consumed the entire car. There might be some sheet metal left. Not to mention what else may catch on fire while the car is a raging inferno.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 11:51 am:

If you are looking for a modern fuel shut off that works and never freezes up with age, Texas T Parts sells one with a Teflon ball valve. I have one at the tank and at the carb. John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 12:38 pm:

I rebuilt my carburetor with a modern Grose Jet about 7 years ago and I haven't shut the fuel off more than a half dozen times since I put that carb on (of course my fuel system was and has always been perfectly clean though). I've never had a leak or even a whiff of gas in the garage. I drive a few thousand miles per year and even a little bit in the winter. I also re-plumbed the fuel system with copper lines & compression fittings and it is as good today as it was the day I put it on... However, I have to admit that many people have no idea how to properly use compression fittings & copper line... Not to mention how to route the fuel line.

If the original Ford line was seamed brass tubing with felt packing (and I occasionally see cars with the original lines that still work), then how come so many people just can't seem to make copper work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 07:57 pm:

I think this has been asked before but does anyone know first hand of a copper fuel line that failed due to work hardening? If it is that dangerous to use then why is it used for outside oil feeds? Seems to me it would be more risky to use as an oil feed than as a fuel line. If the fuel line breaks (fire aside) the engine stops. If the oil line breaks than the unknowing loss of oil will destroy the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:03 pm:

Hey Bud, why not make the handle flush with the floor? Just do a small cutout of the floorboard (you can even just make a new floorboard if you want to save the old one) and do the cutout basically the shape of a quarter piece of a circle, with a little relief on either end to get a finger or two behind the handle. You can then step there and it won't matter and even cover it with a floor mat. Still easier than a screwdriver and much more elegant than a knob or handle sticking out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:03 pm:

Gary,

I suspect the end connector may make a difference, too. Do you use a compression fitting or a flared fitting, for example. Unfortunately, I'm a civil engineer {and if my things start moving I'm in big trouble} so I do not have knowledge on the issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:06 pm:

The oil line is fixed to the hogs head and the engine. They both move together so there is very little vibration of the line. However, the fuel line is attached to the gas tank and the engine and the chassis can vibrate and twist different directions. Metal fatigue sets in and the line break. Also with the compression fittings each time the fitting is compressed it also compresses the line.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 08:13 pm:

Gary

As for the out side oil line kits. The Out side magneto accessory oiler kits that Lang's sells comes with 'thick' wall copper tubing.

There is a difference in use. If you go to the hardware store you get ordinary 'thin' wall copper that is used for refrigerator ice maker water line tubing. The thicker stuff is used in HVAC and other commercial uses.

'Thin' wall copper tubing or rubber tubing for gasoline supply line on the Ford from the gas tank to the carb near the hot exhaust and with the shaky rattle and roll Ford is not a good idea, stick with steel tubing, easy to be had, T vendors or auto-part stores.

http://www.petersenproducts.com/Specifications/Pipe_Copper.aspx

Types of copper tubing.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike taylor on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 - 09:19 pm:

hey bud, so it's got rubber, and it's got copper, and you don't have a fire extinguisher. know what, who cares. you got a model t and that's all that matters. I'm sure you know what gas does. drive the wheels off that thing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 02:48 am:

Gary,
I know of two copper lines that broke.
One resulted in a fire but it was put out before much damage could occur.
Last year an antique car went up in flames due to a gas tank that was too full and as the gas warmed up it expanded and spilled onto the hot exhaust pipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 07:40 am:

This valve is 10 years old. True Value Hardware, about $10. It is a stainless steel 1/8" NPT ball valve with Teflon guts. Impervious to fuel.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 08:54 am:

What I have always thought would be ideal is a valve that was electrically operated. If it could be actuated by magneto current, it would be automatic. You would need a way to prime the carburetor bowl, but you could have an (or several) electrical cut-off switch(es) conveniently and strategically located.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 09:44 am:

Tom:

I think that someone was making that item for awhile. I remember seeing something on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 10:25 am:

Snyder's carries them in the Model A section.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 10:44 am:

I like the ones Don Lang sells. With that type, you don't have to change a thing. I have them on all three of my T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 10:50 am:

Gary,

I had a copper fuel line break, in the exact way predicted in posts above.

John R.,

The roadster that burned up was apparently having trouble with vapor lock so the owner visited a hardware store and purchased some "insulation" which he wrapped around his rubber fuel line. Well, it wasn't insulation, or at least not fireproof insulation, and the "insulation" caught fire off the heat of the exhaust pipe. The burning insulation melted the rubber gas line then all hell broke loose. Total loss. The 90 year old owner had the car since he was a kid.

Everyone,

You'll probably follow human nature and say, "Well that wouldn't happen to MY rubber fuel line because I would never wrap anything flammable around it." Maybe not, but, minor fires or even extreme heat can occur by many different methods. Be sure your fuel system can stand the heat when it really matters. Be safe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 01:35 pm:

My motorcycle has a vacuum operated shut off. You prime it, start it and the vacuum takes over and opens the shutoff. We could do that. Use a spacer plate for vacuum so no original parts are disturbed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 05:58 pm:

OK Thanks. That adds some validity to the subject. I do have steel line on my speedster and will be replacing the copper line on the Hack as it gets closer to being done. 12 volt guys may be interested in this.
http://www.dan-marc.com/79-afc11112.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 - 07:30 pm:

Virtually every farm store or tractor dealership will have electric fuel shut offs that are pretty cheap, 6 or 12 volt and easily installed.

Carry your fire extinguisher in the back of the car where you can get at it while the front is burning.

I wouldn't worry about old American made copper fuel line if it is the heavy refrigeration grade. The new crap made in China is so thin and brittle I wouldn't use it for anything.


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