Grooves in cylinder wall

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Grooves in cylinder wall
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 07:14 am:

I lifted the cylinder head on my 1923 T to decarbonise it, and found on cylinder No.2 that there are two grooves running up and down one side. It looks like they are caused by the gudgeon pin. They may be old grooves, but to check I propose removing the oil sump cover, undoing No.2 big end and lifting the piston and rod out of the block. Does the small end retaining bolt located the gudgeon pin in position or are there circlips at each end? Advice would be welcomed as I am in rural France with nobody around here who knows T's and their peculiar ways. I assume that I will need to have a rebore and fit over-sized pistons/rings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 07:33 am:

Ian, the bolt should hold the pin in place, looks like the wrist pin has slid out the side and left the grooves. To fix it the right way the cylinder needs bored to an oversized piston or have it sleeved back to standard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 07:44 am:

Ian ; You can contact :
- Olivier Chabanne , or
- Docteur T

You can find them by ; www.Ford-T.fr
Nice area where you live , The Morvan, we where there three times with our Model T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 08:53 am:

Ian,

Please see: http://books.google.com/books?id=MB8yAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA209&dq=editions:C7k3Yj5INagC& source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false that has the complete electronic version of Victor Page’s 1918 edition of “Model T Ford Car – Construction, Operation, and Repair” Chapter 5 addresses overhauling as well as inspecting the engine at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MB8yAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA209&dq=editions:C7k3Yj5INagC& source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#

The 1920 version is closer to your car but is missing the pages in chapter 5 so it isn’t as much help for the engine work – but if you are looking for help with the starter and generator they should be covered in that edition at: http://books.google.com/books?id=hSkuAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f= false .

Joe Bell is correct that if the marks produced by the wrist pin are deep and sharp then the cylinder wall will need to be repaired (bored to the next oversize or sleeved back down). And if you do one cylinder, you should consider doing all four and keeping the engine bore the same on all cylinders.

But --- how deep are the scrapes? How long have they been there? I.e. if the piston pin became loose in 1930 and scraped the wall but the owner corrected the problem and it has run “ok” since then – you probably do not need to worry about it. But if the pin has just started scraping the wall recently – then the marks will probably appear sharper and less worn/smoothed over by the piston rings. Note because the wrist pin is below the top of the pistons the upper portions of the cylinder wall probably do not have any additional wear from the wrist pin. Some key items that will help you determine if the wear is new or old are:

1. Do the marks appear new – fresh cut and sharp?
2. Is the wrist pin loose and still touching the cylinder wall or able to move and touch the cylinder wall? Or is it properly secured now which would indicate the problem happened earlier rather than recently?
3. Do you have the old original cast iron pistons or have they been replaced with more modern aluminum pistons?

Depending on how things look – you may need to stop driving the car until it is properly repaired or you may be able to put it back together and continue to enjoy the car “as is” for many more miles.

We will add some additional recommended engine books in a later post.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 09:31 am:

Ian,One thing to rember is model T Ford rods are weak to twisting so hold the piston when tightning the pinch bolt instead of the rod.Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 11:25 am:

Thank you very much for that. Another question - Is it possible to rebore the block in the car, or do I have to strip the engine to a bare block? So many questions. This forum is a fantastic resource.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 11:43 am:

Ian,I depending on how bad you think the groves are,i would reinstall the head and do a compression test before tearing the engine down?? I would also check your clearence on end play,rods,and main clearance before going to a compleat overhaull?? If we rember what Trent said a center main can spring a crank?? Myself i would PM Joe Bell for info!!!!!!!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 11:53 am:

If the grooves aint deep I would try what I did to a Kohler small engine last year.It had a small groove because of a broke ring.
I honed the cylinder, and cleaned everything with lacquer thinner.
I then bought some stuff called Liquid steel at the local parts house.I think it is permatex brand.
Anyhow,a small amount of that rubbed in there and then a good honing you could barely see anything but a grey "pencil" line.
It runs great and the man uses it often on his Gravely tractor.
It will take the heat and the rings cant get to it to wear it out any sooner than the rest of the cylinder wall.
When it is time for a rebuild,it will cut right out with the rest of the metal.
Cant hurt to try it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 03:06 pm:

You can bore one in the car but if you do that the balance of the engine would be out and cause more vibration issues than they have already. If your after a parade car and the scares are low in the block rering it and run it till you have time to do it right, But if you want to tour with it, pull it and go through the whole engine, I am sure there is a lot more things you will find once you open it all up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 03:25 pm:

The pinch bolt has to fall right out in order for the pin to run on the cyl wall, you might find that the babbit has come of one side of the big end and the whole rod has floated across.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 04:48 pm:

I would pull the engine. I think it fair to say that there are more problems to be found.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 05:22 pm:

Ian, it is not good practise to hold the rod while working the pinch bolt due to the chance of twisting. Neither is it good practise to hold the piston while doing this.

The gudgeon pin is usually hollow. A short rod through the pin, gripped in the vice, will hod the piston/rod assembly ina way which will not damage any components. Alternatively, selected socket spanners held at either end of the gudgeon and the whole clamped in the vice will do the same trick.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 05:28 pm:

I have rebored one cylinder on several engines.
The pistons all are supposed to weigh the same no matter what size they are.
In the worst case you could remove a piston next to it, weigh it and get the new piston up or down to the same weight.
I doubt if you can find anyone who will bore a block still in the car these days.
For the cost of getting one cylinder sleeved you could rebore all four and for another hundred bucks get a new set of pistons unless the grooves are to deep to clean up by just boring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, December 15, 2013 - 06:16 pm:

I discovered grooves in #1 and #2 that were caused by the wrist pin being forced to the back of the piston. the problem was caused by the person who did the new babbit and then took it somewhere else to have it line bored, it was not bored straight causing the crank to force the rods back. I had it repaired with a new Scat crank and new poured and bored babbit by a reputable co in the Cincinnati area, he said not to worry about the score marks as they were below the rings.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 03:49 pm:

Ian,

How bad are these grooves? Can you post a photo? It doesn't sound like you were having problems related to the grooves when you decided to remove the head. If that's the case, and unless they're severe, I would ignore them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 04:02 pm:

I have rebored one cylinder on several engines.
The pistons all are supposed to weigh the same no matter what size they are.
In the worst case you could remove a piston next to it, weigh it and get the new piston up or down to the same weight. "END QUOTE"

Aaron the problem with doing that is then you would have a out of balance effect from one cylinder being of more power.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 04:52 pm:

Herm, check with the out board engine re-builders, they do this all the time with manufacture supplied parts, bore and fit weight balanced piston, 2 and 4 stroke, and not just on pleasure cruise engines, racing stuff as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 05:22 pm:

I will do that Kerry as soon as I put a Johnson in my Model T.

Right now my radiator doesn't leak to warrant an outboard.

Cobble is always cobble!!!

Even if you use Febreze, crap is still crap!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Monday, December 16, 2013 - 09:11 pm:

I have rebored one cylinder on several engines.
The pistons all are supposed to weigh the same no matter what size they are. Quote:

That's incredible! how is it that they are suppose to weigh the same in different sizes when Federal Mogul or Yong Chang,maker of the T /A pistons can't even make them weigh evenly when they are the same size.? Unless you specify exactly what the weight is. There is no way that a different oversize piston is remotely the same weight as standard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Bamford, Edmonton AB on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 01:41 am:

Perhaps the oversize piston could be made to match the other three with careful, non-structural, stock removal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, December 17, 2013 - 02:42 am:

Chris, that's the way I read Arrons post and it's the way it's done, I can remember our biggest engine reconditioner, Australia wide, Repco, right up to the early 1970's still doing it. It was only when suppliers stopped selling just one piston that the practice fazed out, even new engines had matched piston to bore size ID' with a letter per cylinder, A piston to A bore B to B C to C etc, but that was only a few thou difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 05:21 am:

Jerry van Ooteghem mentions "why did I pull the head". Well there were no apparent problems in that area, I wanted to decarbonise the pistons, block and head and check that the valves were all OK. Compression was good on all four. No gauge used, just a champagne cork which hit the roof on all four!

Several people have mentioned honing the grooves. Can someone expand on that, do you use a tool, emery paper, grinding paste. Not something I have done before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ian Dean on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 05:55 am:

OK I have answered the honing tool question. I have found that you use a honing tool in an electric hand drill. Youtube has some videos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Wednesday, December 18, 2013 - 08:16 am:

Champagne cork compression tester, I love it, thanks for making my day!


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