Need your help here, what am I missing? This is just the wheel, rim to follow when I get this corrected and done.
Ok caught one of my own...Langs doesn't supply spokes for TT. Snyder's has them as "new" item.
If you're in need of new rear rims, assuming yours is also the 600 x 20, two piece with the so-called "widow maker" lock ring, I bought mine from Universal in Hershey PA. Plan on just under $1400 for a pair. Got my rims, tires and tubes from them, total was $1900. But it's nice to know I have nice safe new rear rims.
I have a pr of NOS Firestone 600 x 20 in rear TT wheels, w/NOS hubs, used face plates, used brake drums need installed plus good used 600 x 20 in split rims and snap rings for sale. firstname.lastname@example.org
You do realize there are 2 different styles of TT rear wheels? One for 20" and one for 23" tires...
Just out of curiosity, why are you making these drawings?
I recently did the 1919 thru 1925 rear car wheel (metal felleo), TT truck is just next on my list, after it comes wood felleo both rounded and square.
I don't own a TT (but some of my friends do, I got the pictures for this wheel from Steve Jelf last night), I've been a technical illustrator/writer for over 40 year, I specialized in manuals both for parts and repairs/maintenance for rocket engines. Whilst looking for work I've been told (on many occasions and by a lot of different people, usually younger than me) I'm "over qualified" or I'd find the work "boring" these both translate out as "too old" for their offered jobs, so as you can imagine I've got lots of time on my hands and besides, I really like to draw (too old or not), lol.
Here's something to think about,I intend to draw everybody bloody T and TT style and configuration I can get any pictures of and anybody who knows anything about them, including the many different carburetors. I'll probably at some point get into speedsters, but first the car, truck and commercial vehicles and then we'll have to see where I go from there.
Yes I realize there is a difference between the 20" and the 23", but I'm don't really know what that might be. If you have the a TT with the 23" wheel, please send me photos of it and I'll draw it next.
Which I why I come here, where else could I find a great selection of Model T and TT's? And the people who know everything about them (or at least debate knowing everything about them, lol).
With all respects, it seems to me that you are second guessing the vendor's drawing depictions.... or you are just anal on catalog part descriptions.
I for one hope you will refrain from "re-inventing the wheel" and let the vendors be responsible for their catalogs.
I have no connection with any vendor, monetarily or in part.
My opinion: I'd leave the lug bolts out of this assembly and show them later when you show the tire/rim assembly bolting onto the wheel assembly.
Good job Martin, keep the drawings coming! KGB
BTW, I think Martin does a good job with his drawings. It would really eat up some memory, but wouldn't it be neat to have the whole model T modeled in 3D CAD? I could see where vendors might have some use for Martin's drawings one day.
Bob, I have no connection either with any vendor, other than Steve Johnson wanted wheel drawings for his wheel shop. I just have nothing better to do. Aside from that which vendors do have, there are quite a few assemblies/sub assemblies they don't have. Either because there are no parts currently available that would require those drawings, or they feel they're not necessary...I beg to differ, lol. Whilst the saying maybe old, it still holds true..."a picture is worth a thousand words", and that's precisely the picture/drawing I'm looking to make.
I was going to do this 30 some odd years ago when I started on my Model T touring as my very own personal catalog. But things and life got in the way...now as personal challenge I intend to pick up where I left off and complete it.
As for re-inventing the wheel...I've never seen any of the parts houses with an illustrated wheel. Mac's has some rather good rear axle, front axle, engine and transmission parts, steering column, and I think they may even have the torque tube...the front or rear wheels??? No! And sub assemblies for the TT (I think Mac's has the worm drive rear end) but there is more to that truck than just it's rear end or the engine (which is the same as the cars) and of course this is were the fun comes in.
Have you ever seen a an exploded view of the Vaporizer Carburetor? I've got one, I've also got a color cross section, but I don't have a vaporizer carburetor, it was just fun to draw, which it the whole bloody point of this, lol.
Most of the club books would benefit from your images. The carb book for instance would be greatly improved with your line drawings. The exploded views tell folks more than 5 pages of text description. There are other books that need assistance as well. Keep up the good work.
Hal, you mean the lug bolts aren't swagged or press fitted into the wheel felleo like on the cars? If that's so, then yes, they should be with the tire/rim assembly.
Does anybody have a picture of the "widow maker" death rim not latched? I'd like to see precisely what makes this thing such a terror.
Also is there any noticeable differences between the 20" wheel and the 23" wheel other than spoke size?
This is what I know. The Hayes demountable Rear TT wheel was discontinued as near as I have researched sometime in 1924 having first been used when demountables became popular. This is the 23" split rim style. The later stye Kelsey and Firestone 20" Wheels replaced the older style Hayes after late 1923. They are the Demountable ones with the Snap Ring. There was an overlap with these different wheels during 1924. It seems that Ford changed the wheels to increase the tire load capacity.
I'd have to dig Martin, but I should have the
original part numbers for both from my research files.
I would love to see the vaporizer carb view.
23 in rims are a split rim like the 21 in car rims, a 20 in wheel has the snap ring
John, do you have a picture of the 20" rim unsnapped? I plan to draw the assembly of tire to rim. I've got a close up picture from Steve Jelf, but it's already snapped and the tire installed. Is it only held snapped closed by the little ears on either side of the rim, that you can see in this picture I got from Steve.
Or does it have more meat than this to hold it closed?
Exploded view of the Vaporizor carb has been on the internet for many years.
Are you going to re-invent ?
What is your real intentions ?
Do something else with your retirement ?
Martin: May be better to get a job with one of the vendors to show their mistakes ?
I have had 3 TT trucks with 23" snap ring wheels. they take a 33 X 5 tire.
Has it now? All I've seen is the old crosshatch drawing of the cross section (which I re-rendered as a color cross section). Tell me where I can find it because Dave Hjortnaes wants to see one.
Sadly I won't be able to "re-invent it", because I've already drawn it.
Here's the thing about my drawings Bob, they're all drawn pretty much in the same plain, which affords someone, allowing for size, to lay each assembly over top of the other and put together the whole damn car...which is exactly what I'm doing. I can't think of a better way to spend my retirement than to draw my favorite cars, lol.
And Bob, I never said they made any mistakes in their drawings...because they haven't. I just said they didn't make all the drawings for the car that I think should be made.
Go to google and search for "truck lock rims" and see how the pieces interlock. Not much different over the years.
I like your work. If you enjoy doing it, then keep at it. Whether it's commercial or just for fun it's pretty neat.
For you folks turned off by this endeavor, why don't you just skip Martin's topics.
Soooo, the rim isn't split and has a locking ring that fits over it?
Or is the locking ring the top part of the rim? Then there's a rounded looking bead that goes over that and holds it closed and is held by the lug bolt clamps?
Or is the round looking bead part of the locking outer ring of the rim?
Do the google search! The rim is not split and it is not drop center. Lay flat on floor and tire (w/tube and flap) slips over it. The ring (looks like giant snap ring) goes between the bead of the tire and the lip of the rim. The air pressure pushes the bead against the lip. If it's not perfectly interlocked all the way around, it pops off and kills you as it's being inflated! USE CAUTION WHEN MOUNTING
I did the google search and there seems to be several different types of these locking mechanisms (which is why I asked). Some bolt together, some have a locking key that slips in and others still have some sort of latch lock, all of them are not really clear, especially to someone who hasn't ever seen one, seen it done or much less worked on one.
So as I understand it the rim is a one sided spool (cylinder with a lip on one side), which the tire, tube and flap slips over right? Does it use the bridge washer and nut like cars do? Then you put this locking ring on over the main part of the rim lining up the tires bead with it's channel (round looking beaded part), some how squeeze it closed to latch it taking care that the bead is still trapped within, or it pops off and slaughters you? right? Makes it kind or hard fixing a flat or changing a tire on the road doesn't it (hope you carrying a spare)?
So what do people typically do, go to tire shops like Steve Jelf did? or wrap a chain around the tire to keep it sort of caged so it can't fly off and bean you one?
I have a question, if this thing is so dangerous to inflate whilst off the truck. Why not only inflate it enough only to get the wrinkles out of the tube, but not enough to pressurize the tire. Slip the whole bloody thing onto the trucks wheel, clamp it down with the lug bolts and then continue inflating the bloody tire to the correct pressure. It's held in place by the lugs, so it can't come off and kill you and you can watch it closely to make sure it's inflating properly. After it's inflated, hit it with a mallet a couple of times to make sure the bead is set and then either leave it on or remove it if it's the spare. Seems a hell of a lot safer that way than trying to mess with it laying flat on the ground.
PLEASE continue to draw the Model T parts! I love your break down drawings and have been saving them for future reference.
As for a job I think you should compile a book for every Model T and sell them.
I for one would be interested in purchasing copies of them.
The force on that ring is phenomenal. I've never seen a 20" TT wheel apart, but I have seen a ring come off a modern truck rim. It was in a cage, and we knew it was probably going to come off, as it was sprung and wouldn't seat properly, but we were all young bullet proof privates in Uncle Sam's Army and we needed the excitement. Scared the heck out of us when it did come loose and it bowed the sides of the cage. I don't know that the lug bolts would hold it.
Thankfully, I've not had to have the rear wheels (23") off of my TT in years, but I'm pretty sure the bolts just stick through the holes and are not swaged in, but I could be wrong.
Also, I'm not sure what Bob is getting at, but pay him no attention. I understand doing the CAD work just for the fun of it. As a matter of fact, I'm kinda jealous. I had thought about doing what you are doing several years ago with thoughts of maybe doing a service manual with the exploded views. As good as the black book is, the pictures are horrible. I thought about trying to do something about it. Something along the lines of the Model A Mechanic's Handbook, if you are familiar with it. I just never had the time and I don't have 3D CAD at home, only at work.
Neat, I learned a few things about TT wheels here.
Bob, with some due respect, some, move on or interject with useful information. I found/find this thread amusing and useful.
Someone with talent the that most of us do not have is using their time to fulfill a passion that was started years ago and is sharing it with us, and the best part is that he wants more information to continue. Lighten up.
Ford didn't use rubber stem tubes til about 1935. You're sort of on the right track. Look at your 9:56 pic and you'll see the lug holds the rim to the wheel--it don't touch the lock ring. The ring is split so you can get it over the lip, then pull it back up and it fits to the rim. I've got a 1978 Ford 8000 that still has lock ring wheels. The center of the wheel is welded to the rim, but the lock rim setup is still like the ones on my 20 inch TT's. I make sure the mating surfaces are very clean, and put chains around in about 4 places and inflate slowly, making sure the ring is correctly in place before filling up. It's getting hard to find anyone to fool with these anymore.
I meant to tell you that, although you can't see it, the ring locks to the rim much in the same way a clincher tire mounts to the rim--there's a ridge and a groove. I'll look around the farm today and see if I can find one disassembled to photograph and show you. (a pic is worth a thousand words)
Go to the website for Universal Tire and look up locking rims. Click on the 6:00 X 20 wide and they have a good picture along with a cross section drawing of the rim and lock ring.
MARTIN; If you don't already have it, get a copy of Bruce McCalley's comprehensive encyclopedia, parts book, & owners manuals on DVD ROM. In the parts book there are illustrations of just about everything, as well as photos of many parts in the encyclopedia. I believe that DVD ROM would give you about 75% of the info you need for just about anything you want to draw (including correct FORD part numbers, factory numbers, and dates used)... If you want to make accurate technical drawings, you should use the real FORD part/factory numbers and not the vendor numbers.
Martin, your illustrations are great! Many of us (me) endeavour to repair/restore assemblies where not all the physical parts are present, so a complete drawing can often be the key to a successful restoration.
In 1964 I restored a set of rear wheels for my "22 TT (23' wheels) the rims were split across the face of the rim with a flat lock plate that aligned the rims. It took me months of searching to find a rim with those plates still intact. It turned out they were simple matching plates riveted to the rim ends. They were easy to fabricate but without one to copy nearly impossible to imagine. An illustration would have saved me a great deal of frustration and time. Although 50 years late for my project, your work has tremendous value for future TT (and T) enthusiasts. Keep up the good work!