Here are a few photos to keep us going through the Christmas holiday period...
A 1918 Peel bodied roadster made in Brisbane, Queensland.
A 1914 Davies & Fehon bodied tourer made in Sydney, New South Wales.
A 1914 Tarrant bodied roadster made in Melbourne, Victoria.
A 1922 Nettleford bodied tourer made in Hobart, Tasmania.
A 1918 Duncan & Fraser Limited tourer made in Adelaide, South Australia.
A 1915 T.J. Richards bodied roadster also made in South Australia.
With General Motors in Detroit last week announcing that GM Holdens would cease manufacturing in 2017 after 100 years Australia losing 3,000 jobs, it is nice to go back show everybody that Holden actually built many bodies in Adelaide for Ford cars. Bodies were shipped from Adelaide to Melbourne, Victoria for assembly and final sale.
French stopped all colonial bodies in all states on Fords in 1925 putting an end to some of the most exquisite and colourful bodies to ever adorn the Ford 'T'. Merry Christmas forum readers from all of us "Down Under".
A 1923 Holden bodied Tarrant proudly owned by Murray Alcock.
A beautifully restored 1924 Holden bodied Tarrant restored & owned by Allan Bennett.
Yet another -[not unlike my car under restoration]
Good idea David! Christmas greetings to all forum friends from Down Under. We will continue to tour in our T's as we enjoy our Summer season.
A few more Aussie ones for your enjoyment.
A couple more to add...
And my personal favourite, a 1911 Duncan & Fraser "Tulip" bodied roadster built in Adelaide, South Australia.
Photo courtesy of Ian Duncan Smith & the Duncan Family.
Great photos thank you all. And if you know which body maker, year, etc. please let us know that also -- it will help out for later identification. Or if you don't know -- please let us know that also and perhaps someone can I.D. the body maker?
I still believe there was a good chance if Henry Ford had offered some deluxe bodies for the T chassis in the USA (similar to the 1907 Model R that used the same basic Model N chassis (with a mechanical oiler and larger wheels) but nicer body, trim, and accessories) he would have been selling even more cars.
Great photos thank you for sharing them.
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A 1913 [DUNCAN & FRAZER] wide bodied 'T' roaster i am at present restoring.
Thank you David, Bob, and Warwick! I love all those wonderful Colonial bodied Ts.
Bob, That roadster (Torpedo?) looks great! The wheels, fenders, everything look fantastic. Is the radiator what that car would have had originally? It looks a lot like the radiator Paige used about that time? (You do not have to answer if you do not wish to)
Wonderful cars! Thank you all.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy the Christmas and New Year Holidays! W2
That D&F Tulip bodied roadster is beautiful!! Don.
Hi Wayne ,
The radiator is one of the styles from the LIVINGSTONE RADIATOR company USA.. It was used as an assessor by many dealers and was used as standard equipment on the DAVIES & FEHON DELUXE CARS IN AUSTRALIA FROM ABOUT 1913 .
I'M SURE DAVID WILL HAVE A PICTURE OF A DUNCAN & FRAZER ORIGINAL STYLE RADIATOR FROM THAT ERA ?.
Here is a Davies and Fehon De Luxe touring with the radiator.
Above car well before restoration
Merry Christmas from Sydney, Here is "Clara" 1918 Davies and Fehon tourer,
Thank you for the additional great photos!
Bob – that will be a beautiful 3 person roadster when it is finished. Below is a photo you posted of that car on the forum previously -- note also the buggy.
The original photo that shows a few more Ts is available for viewing at the State Library of South Australia – number B17637 or use the link: http://images.slsa.sa.gov.au/mpcimg/17750/B17637.htm Since it is not copyrighted they allow us to repost it and it shown below:
I submitted a few additional details for the library to consider adding to their record. That the 3 person roadster body car survives and is being restored by Bob Trevan with a reference to Bob’s photos and posting above. Also some of the comments from Dave Chantrell’s excellent book “Duncan & Fraser Ltd. Legacies Left Untold” page 110 that has the complete photo and additional details. Note the State Library dates the photo as taken in 1915. If someone has a higher resolution copy, they may be able to zoom in on the rear axle center housings or other details to either support that date for the photo or perhaps find a detail that would recommend changing the date. So far the latest features I see are the 1915-1916 curved but NOT crowned rear fender on the car in front of the 3-person roadster. But perhaps Duncan & Frasier etc. produced curved fenders without the crown before Ford USA or Canada began doing that on the 1915 year model cars.
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I always liked the looks of Duncan & Frasier bodies but now that I have seen good pictures of Holden bodied Fords I like the Holden bodies even better.
Thanks for posting all the pictures guys.
HI HAP --- AND THANKS FOR THE PICS.
I HAD LOST THEM HAVE BEEN TRY TO FIND THEM IN THE COMPUTER FOR SOME TIME
Hap, perhaps the photo is later than 1916. I can't blow up the photo, but the light coloured tourer third from right appears to have the curved down front mudguards typical of the first black radiator cars in 1917. Are the guards the crowned type?
Allan from down under.
Bob -- I sent you a higher resolution copy of the photograph of your car.
Allan -- great question. I do not have a higher resolution copy of the complete photo. But I suspect David Chantrell may have. As you probably know, but for those who may read this in the future, the diamond window and the curved front mud guards were used on the Duncan & Fraser Deluxe bodied cars along with the light color paint. There is a photo on page 97 of David's book that shows the Duncan & Fraser factory taken in 1915. The standard Ford body has the flat top straight front fenders while the Deluxe bodies have curved and crowned front fenders similar looking to the ones on Bob's 1913. I will try tomorrow to see if I can zoom in on the copy posted above -- but I hope David sees the post and can shed some more light on light colored car. He was able to tell who it was registered to -- so perhaps he has other information in his notes about that photo? If the photo shows a standard 1917 style fender then clearly later than 1915. Hopefully we will be able to find out one way or the other.
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Hap , Its certainly difficulty to pinpoint dates with Australian Ts.
Eg, The 1913 car i am restoring has the later year style CHASSIS yet has the firewall drillings to suit the early style wooden COIL BOX.
Thanks Hap for those high resolution picture. I can now see it has early style riveted diff .
Hap, David's excellent book shows a 1915 D&F on page 99 and a 1918 D&F car on page 106. You will notice that the crowned front mudguards made by D&F are a different profile to those on the Huppatz service station photo. The crown is higher and the curvature of the guard, front to rear, is much more pronounced. Those on the cream car are just like the standard 1917 and later offering from Ford. This also has a bearing on the shape of the skirt which meets the chassis.
On page 107 are two photos of 1918 D&F models. Both have the standard Ford mudguards with the sweeping curve on the front. If the cream car above is a D&F bodied car, it could well have the standard Ford mudguards, making it a later 1917 or later car.
Bob, you are right about the difficulty in dating colonial built cars. Henry used up all the older parts during production, often mixing them on the change-over, and then the various assembly works further confused this. The problem was probably even more pronounced with delays in delivery etc getting parts to Australia. This would explain early parts on later cars, but it does not explain the later chassis in your 1913 roadster. Might it have been changed at some time?
Just for interest.
Allan from down under.
The State Library of South Australia has this photo B17637, and many others, incorrectly dated. The "0-XXXX" type licence plate, never came into being in January 1918. The "Huppatz" photo of Saddleworth is therefore at least 1918, not 1915 as stated by the library.
In South Australia a number plate changed with the driver; it was a licence plate and not a registration plate. So when a vehicle changed hands the licensed driver could either sell the vehicle with that plate or take it with them to their next car. In January 1918 they had issued 9,999 numbers. Rather than simply go to 10,000 our authorities began back at zero, so 10,000 is 0.0000!!! This is further complicated with if you had a previous number such as say 5808, when you relicensed the car after January 1918 the authorities could put a ‘O’ in front of too, so the same car with the same number plate became 0.5808. When this was done the plate changed from black with white numerals to a white plate with black numerals. Confused yet?
The light coloured tourer #6955 on the left in the group of 3 on right is a Duncan & Fraser Limited “Embargo” body released in August 1917 and ran through unchanged until mid 1921 when it was replaced by the newer style Duncan Motors Limited body. This is the stock car you would buy on the showroom floor anywhere in South Australia through this period. Here are a couple of photos of an as found 1918 Duncan & Fraser "Embargo" bodied Ford (the rear mudguards are incorrect and changed out during its working life for some reason unknown to us). Duncan & Fraser used standard Ford chassis as available from the factory in Canada, including mudguards, valences and bonnet.
Photos courtesy of the Haines Family.
As this body wasn’t even released until after the "Embargo" announcement of August 1917, this is the send reason supporting the incorrect date and should be at least 1918.
Here is a photo of the Duncan & Fraser curved mudguards fitted tho their "deluxe" bodied Fords. Note the distinctive and characteristic inverted valences that require the chassis to be modified to fit.
Re your number plate explanation---Could it be that the original number on my car was 2497 ---and could it be that above picture of the car in the street was taken after January1918 it would explain that the 0 had been added in front of the original number 2497 ???
Yes and no. It could be the original number, it could be a new owner with their original number, it could be his number #2497 (first issued in late 1912) and took it with him onto this car when the photo was taken. As there is a 'O' prefix, it is later than January 1918. There are a number of variables thanks to our inept state government. Wow, it is still inept today, nothing has changed in 100 years...
Here is a photo of a 1917 Duncan & Fraser Limited "deluxe" tourer crossing the Coorong on the way from Adelaide to Melbourne in 1918. See the white plate with black numerals. The original 1915 number was kept when this car was updated with a new body and made a Duncan & Fraser staff car for Mr. Theim. Mr. Theim kept the number and had it renewed to stay with the car. As I asked before, are you all confused yet?!!!
For the record, the above car C98674 was originally painted all midnight blue, had green trim and a gray canvas hood.
Bob's extremely rare Duncan & Fraser Limited bodied gaslight roadster was ordered and bought by a rather large doctor from Port Lincoln. Hence its width. Bob's car is so wide a teenager can sit between the driver and outside. As I said, the doctor was rather large and ordered a car with comfort! When a customer was paying an extra £150 for the coachwork on top of the £300 for the car, the owner got what he wanted and Duncan & Fraser willingly obliged!
Thank you for the great photos and additional information. I will send the library a note with it is circa 1918 or later based on the license plates.
Someone once said two countries separated by a common language – but would you please let me know what is the “inverted valance” and what modification to the chassis was required to make them fit (ref your Wednesday, December 25, 2013 - 08:21 am: posting)? Below is a photo showing what I think you are referring to.
Note you commented, "In South Australia a number plate changed with the driver; it was a licence plate and not a registration plate. So when a vehicle changed hands the licensed driver could either sell the vehicle with that plate or take it with them to their next car. In January 1918 they had issued 9,999 numbers. Rather than simply go to 10,000 our authorities began back at zero, so 10,000 is 0.0000!!! This is further complicated with if you had a previous number such as say 5808, when you relicensed the car after January 1918 the authorities could put a ‘O’ in front of too, so the same car with the same number plate became 0.5808. When this was done the plate changed from black with white numerals to a white plate with black numerals. Confused yet?
I’m trying to line that up with the license plates in the photo and it is not quite lining up for me.
For the wide 3 place roadster it has a black background with “0-2497.” If I understand the paragraph above it would mean a new owner registered the car after Jan 1918 (about 2497 cars after Jan 1918) and they did NOT use the number from the previous owner nor did they use a previous number they had. If that had used a previous number the plate would have still had the same numbers but would have been white with black numbers. That one fits the description above.
The next car – the 1918 or so embargo bodied T with license # 6955 [no I didn’t zoom in on the posted photo – but the photo in your book clearly shows the license tag number and you also kindly typed it in the description.]. But in this case there is NOT a “0” in front of it. Did they also have white license plates issued after Jan 1918 that were white with the new number but without the “0” at the front?
The next car with the # “0-853” is a black plate with white numbers. It also lines up with the paragraph above as a new registration after the Jan 1918 date. And the low number would put it closer towards Jan 1918 rather than further away.
The next car (far right) with the #2664 or something close to that – has white numbers on a black plate. Without the “0” in front it would lead me to think it was registered before Jan 1918. I tried to see enough details to tell if that car is or is not a Ford – but the resolution does not allow me to see that. If you know – please share.
Good news we clearly know the date is Jan 1918 or later. Perhaps there is a Australian license plate collector who will shed some additional information on those plates.
Again thank you all for the excellent information and photos.
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Aussie refresher course for Hap!
Splash Apron - Valance Panel
Top - Hood
Fender - Mudguard
Touring - Tourer
Runabout - Roadster
There are plenty of others. Feel free to add when you think of them. That's what we get for being a Colonial Country and driving USA supplied vehicles! Merry Christmas Hap, and all the best for 2014. Always enjoy your informative posts and your interest in Canadian/Aussie cars.
I have one of those radiators
Plan to put it on a racer I have
HI ALL ,''Help''
WHAT CAN ONE SAY RE ALL THE ABOVE INFO ??---I am only a mortal male . I've decided to lock myself in the office with a carton of VB and see if i can sort all this out.
Hap, I do not see the relevance of adding anything more about the complicated South Australian licensing of motor vehicles through to the 1920's. If anybody has any questions please send me a PM.
Inverted Valance Question
If you stand side on and look at a 'T' the valance curves outwards towards you.
On a Duncan & Fraser with their own built mudguards the valances are "inverted" and curve away from you. The standard, forged running board castings will hit the inverted valance. Duncan & Fraser heated & bent the supports to have an inwards curve so their valance can be fitted. Aren't these just gorgeous?
For Warwick – thank you for the kind words and the helpful listing of terms. Some of them I know from having had an MGB once, but the Valance was a new one for me (or as I get older – one that got away…).
For David – thank you for posting the photo that so clearly shows how the valance (splash apron) is curved the opposite direction on the deluxe bodied Duncan & Fraser bodied Model T. I am so used to seeing the valance (splash apron) curved the other way that even knowing that they have the opposite curve I have trouble seeing it in many of the photos. Thank you for posting the photo above that so clearly shows the way it is curved. I’ll need to review your book again, as I am now looking to see which other photos have the inverted valance (reverse curved splash apron). As time went on, did Duncan & Fraser offer the deluxe body with the standard Ford fenders and valance? For example on page 111 of you book you have a photo from 1919 of both the Deluxe and the Embargo bodies cars. The fenders and valances look the same to me – on both cars. Am I just seeing what I am used to seeing or do they both have the same Ford style fenders and valance?
Again thank you for all your support and photos.
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Happy new year, I'm off now water skiing for 2 weeks. See you all in 2014!