Engine Stops When I Step on the Service Brake

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: Engine Stops When I Step on the Service Brake
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 06:06 pm:

I hope ya'll can help me before this wonderful 2013 Forum turns into a pumpkin ! I started out by adjusting my 3 high speed 'fingers' or 'dogs' one half turn tighter due to perceived high speed slippage. The tudor started easily but when I stepped on the brake to put the Warford in gear the engine drastically decreased RPMs and I felt it would stop altogether if I continued braking. So I consulted pg. 32 of Ted's 'Tinkerin Tips' to see if I need to do something to again achieve a 'free neutral'. Guess not because there appeared to be the requisite 1/16" play in the clevis when the emergency brake handle is full forward and the clutch pedal is pulled fully to the rear. I might add that when the brake lever is pushed forward, the clutch pedal is not affected. Why is the application of the foot brake stopping the engine ?? . Happy New Year to all !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave DeYoung on Thursday, December 26, 2013 - 06:25 pm:

George: It sound like the clutch is not disengaging. With the trans inspection cover off, pull the parking brake lever to the neutral position. Now check the clutch fingers for free play. If no free play, you will need to run down the screw that contacts the cam on the brake cross-shaft until there is sufficient free play to release the clutch plates. Once that is set, you may need to readjust the interlock between the clutch lever shaft and the low pedal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 10:44 am:

Thanks Dave. . . . I'll get out there and open the inspection cover now - with a 9/16 socket to adjust the bolt that acts on the cam. Probably ought to take the clevis pin out to make that adjustment easier. I'll report on any progress


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 10:48 am:

If the bolt is installed with the threaded end down you might flip if over so the head rides on the cam. That will give more surface to ride on. You could also round over the edges some so it's not so sharp.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Friday, December 27, 2013 - 01:28 pm:

If you have slippage (I don't know what perceived slippage is) turning the fingers in won't help that will only tighten up the required clearance and your clutch will not disengage. With the clutch engaged there should be a slight clearance between the fingers and the clutch push ring. If you have slippage:

A. the fingers too tight,or
B. the clutch spring is broken

When the clutch fingers are originally set they are secured with a small cotter pin through the screw slot as they are not intended to be readjusted. Any adjustment would require 1/2 or 1 full turn to reinsert the pin. That much would take up the required clearance, so your clutch is probably not disengaging. The clearance on the lever would have no effect if the clutch is not disengaging in the first place. Return the fingers to their original position either 1/2 or 1 full turn and reinsert the pins. When fully engaged there should be slight movement between the clutch push plate and the fingers. You should be able to wiggle it by hand. If you continue to have slippage inspect the clutch spring.

Some additional trivia the 1915 parts book lists 09 - 15 transmission clutch discs being 13 small and 13 large discs and a distance plate. The distance plate is twice the thickness as the regular plates, the parts vendors do not list this plate. Moving up to 1923 original parts book lists 09 - 23 therefore 09 - 15 is included lists 12 small and 13 large and the distance plate is not included in the 09 - 23 parts book but is in the 09 - 15 book. I went to Bakersfield swap meet and asked several vendors about the distance plate and their was no knowledge of it, Lang's equally had no knowledge of the part. One vendor had a 5 gallon pail of clutch discs and digging through the pail I found one correct distance plate for my 15. With out said distance plate additional discs are installed to make up the difference therefore you could have 14 of each. When redoing transmissions later in life these little issues cause some confusion. They discontinued the distance plate some time in the late teens and redesigned the housing to accommodate the lesser number of discs. You have to very carefull when mixing and matching transmission parts some will work and some won't. I had several pails of transmission parts that I decided to assemble in to working transmissions only to find there were three different years mixed up in the pails and many of he parts were different. The clutch finger pins were different, clutch housing, number of discs, distance plate, plus some other parts were different. I finally managed to assemble three transmissions and they are all a bit different internally, and externally.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 11:40 am:

Can you turn over the engine with the Warford in gear but the parking brake on? Will it start with the Warford in gear but the Ford parking brake on. Will it idle with the Ford in neutral and the Warford in gear? It could be that your idle is too slow. The engine will idle slower in free neutral than it will when the drag of the clutch disks are involved. Try setting up the idle just a little bit. If it won't turn over or start in Ford Neutral your clutch is out of adjustment and not releasing.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 02:54 pm:

Well, this has certainly given me a lot of food for thought. I did take the inspection cover off and there was no play between the 3 fingers when in neutral. They were tight against that clutch spool thingy. Norman, the crank propels the T forward with the Ford transmission in neutral and the Warford in gear. Once I started the engine with both transmissions in neutral I couldn't get the Ford to disengage to put the Warford in gear. Mark, I did take the opportunity to turn the bolt over so that the head actuates on the cam but now got the adjustment really fouled up trying to disengage the clutch. David, I've never heard that before but you may be right! I thought turning the 3 fingers in 1/2 turn at a time will 'take up' any high speed slippage. I did that on a tour last October and it seemed to help. And I thought "the clearance on the lever" would help the spring disengage. . . Guess not . . I shall return the 3 fingers to their previous position - 1/2 turn counterclockwise - and attempt to reestablish a free neutral. I even disengaged the 2 brake rods to simplify things. There wasn't much emergency brake lever difference between neutral and rear wheel brake application. . . will report findings -I might have learned something!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 07:35 pm:

Either your fingers are too tight, or the disks inside are broken and jammed. Try the adjustment first. One thing some people have trouble with in shifting the T is that they don't push the throttle up when shifting from low to high and so the engine races and the clutch slips. If you push the gas up, you will feel the engine and the driveshaft reach synchronized speed and the clutch will take hold. Do you have the standard Ford clutch disks or a modern replacement such as watts or jackrabbit? The modern clutches can wear out rapidly if they are allowed to slip.
Norm


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