New Model N Project

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2013: New Model N Project
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Protexter on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 01:25 am:

We picked this up today. The story is that it was put in the basement of a hardware store in 1941 to save it from the scrap drives. It seems to be in pretty good condition. We will get into the engine tomorrow.

The last picture is of the birthday boy with is new car. Sometimes you have to buy your own presents to get what you want.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dylan Thomas Wills on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 01:34 am:

Happy birthday! Very cool project, congrats on the find! Keep us updated with pictures, eh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 01:52 am:

Wow! Too cool!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 03:57 am:

What a fine renovation items, congratulations!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 06:06 am:

Ned,

Great project. Welcome to the early Ford owner club. Looks like a McCord oiler. Do i see the remnants of a magneto or front mounting timer? What's the engine number. Early or later rear end?

Congrats,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 07:28 am:

Welcome to the Early Ford group! My S has been a lot of fun to research and rebuild. The first time driving down the road is incredible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 07:30 am:

WOW ! That'll make an easy and fun restoration - stored INSIDE ! Congratulations on a find all should envy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 07:38 am:

Here is before and after for my S.model smodel s-2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 07:42 am:

Congratulations on the find, Ned. I've got to see it when I get your way!
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 09:09 am:

Wow, looks like a great project - Congratulations!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:10 am:

What a great project. Thanks for sharing the before pictures.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:15 am:

Great find I'm proud for you! KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:58 am:

Happy Birthday, Dan! That should keep your hands busy for a while. Be nice and remember to let Ned help you work on it. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 04:37 pm:

Congrats on your new purchase! Please keep us posted on your progress with lots of photos. Happy Birthday Dan...this makes your 29th, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 05:08 pm:

Ned,

I hate to break this to you, but it's not an "N". I think it is an "R". The shape of the turtle deck as revealed by its shadow on the platform, and the 1907 mechanical oiler are the giveaways, despite the step plates.

I cannot tell from the photos whether the wheels are 30x3 or 28x3. Please measure them and let us know.

Cool looking device for moving the timer to the front of the engine. I haven't seen this one before. Please put some more pictures of this up. Maintaining the timer in its original position is challenging when the engine is cold, and almost impossible without getting burned when the engine is hot.

The really good news is that the R seems to be the scarcest car to find in the NRS and S Roadster series today. I don't know why that is because more Rs were built than S Runabouts, but that is just based on my observations.

Congratulations on your new N/R! I think you will enjoy driving it. Bruce Balough and I have certainly enjoyed ours.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 05:18 pm:

What a nice find. How did you hear about it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:26 pm:

Ned,

Congratulations on your find! It shows that some of the old cars are still out there to be rediscovered etc.

I would recommend you invest $15 and join the Early Ford Registry. Main page is http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ and the I want to join page is: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/formmail/application2.htm

It will give you access to member’s page that contains the “Price List of Parts” and the “Price List of Parts and Instruction Books” for the N, R, S, and SR Fords. Lots of good photos and information.

You do not have to join to read their forum or to post on their forum, although you will need to register to post on their forum.

I would also highly recommend you obtain the following:

“Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” lots of photos and information about the N,R,S, and SR as well as other 1909 and earlier Fords. It also contains a DVD with a ton of additional information.

Lang’s latest catalog http://www.modeltford.com/ they have the largest catalog selection of N,R,S and SR parts in place that I know of see the list at: http://www.modeltford.com/model-t-parts/nrs-parts/

I would recommend obtaining a reprint of the following from Lang’s (they are digitally on Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” DVD but many of us enjoy a printed copy. Well, I just checked and I no longer see them available as reprints from Langs. My next suggestion would be to contact the HCFI and ask them if they have a reprint of 1907 “Ford Price List of Part for Models N, R, and S [does not include the SR but it is much more plentiful than the 1908 reprint that does contain the SR.] Also the reprint for “How to Drive the Model N and R.” They also are the same size and color as the originals and a lot less money so you can use them in the garage/car.

I would also recommend taking lots of good quality photos. It is very easy to forget how it looked.

Related to that, Trent is probably the best authority on the Model N, R, S, and SR cars. He has done a tremendous amount of research. Published several databases about the cars etc. In this one case, I believe he may have been in a hurry when he commented that the outline of the trunk indicated it was a Model R. He probably did that to make me fell better that even folks as knowledgeable as he is about the cars can make a mistake every now and then.

Below is the outline of the Model R Runabout trunk from the 1907 “Price List of Parts.” Notice how it goes straight back and then forms almost a semicircle at the end. It was more rounded than the N Runabout or the S Runabout so a 30 x 3 tire could fit inside the trunk:





Below is the outlined of the trunk that was on your car. Notice it goes more to a point than to a nice semicircle shape.



Notice it clearly comes to a point rather than the nice semicircle of the Model R Runabout.

Additionally your car had step plates. On both sides although on one of the photos the step plate did not show up well at all due to the angle of the photo.





Note the Model N Runabout was the only Model N, R, S, or SR that came from the factory with Step Plates rather than running boards.

Putting those two items together the frame and body appear to be Model N rather than Model R.

But notice Trent commented on a mechanical oiler. Those were standard on the Model R, S, and SR and NOT the Model N. So what does that mean? The oiler did not originally come with the car that had that frame. The frame may have been swapped out. Or the oiler may have replaced the Force Feed oiler that the Model N was normally equipped with (a cylinder, filled with oil, that was pressurized by the exhaust). Note if you look in the Price List of Parts or Carl’s book you will notice the mechanical oiler on your car is a 1908 McCord style.

Just like the Model Ts as well as other cars and trucks after them, owners often replaced some parts with other parts. They may have swapped the engine out, or just the oiler, or any combination of original to the car and a few things changed. Note all the N, R, S, and SR parts can be interchanges with minimal effort. Sort of like the old 1960s when you could purchase the 288 Mustang with a two barrel carb and then later go to the Ford dealer and have a four barrel carb and manifold fitted to the same engine. It would bolt right on.

Better photos would be a great help. Note your car’s manifold may be the early style as shown below on Irvin Haisch’s Model N:



Or it may be the later style that looks like a mirror image to the Model T exhaust manifolds – that later style N, R, S, and SR manifold is shown below (photo from Trent’s web site of his 1907 Model N).



See also Trent’s web page of his beautiful 1907 Ford Model N Runabout at: http://jupiter.plymouth.edu/~trentb/ModelT/N662/ModelN.html there is lots of good information there.

It is getting late and I need to stop for the night but again congratulation on your find. I’m sure you will be able to restore it to a beautiful car. Before I forget several years ago very accurate reproduction bodies were available for the N, R, and S cars. Also If you would like a free copy of an article “How to ID the N, R, S, Fords” please send me an e-mail with “Send ID NRS” in the subject. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile. My e-mail address is the third line down. And if you send your engine number we can look at the dates it may have been produced. Note all four of the N, R, S, and SR models had serial numbers that started at 1 and went up from there.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:30 pm:

Oops -- the two exhaust manifold photos above are posted out of order. The one that looks like the mirror image of the T on the maroon colored car is the later one from Trent’s web site and the one on the black car is Irvin Haisch’s Model N.

Respectfully corrected,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 11:01 pm:

So what did the force feed and mechanical oilers deliver oil to? I think I have seen pictures of model Ns with an oil line going to the fourth main.

Thanks,
Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 11:35 pm:

Stephen,

They send oil to the crankcase and top driveshaft bushing, just forward of the u joint. Pre T Fords are drip loss systems, meaning you are always trying to "drip" enough oil into the crankcase to make up for the continual "loss". The Model N had an exhaust supplied pressure tank on the right front engine side, while the "upscale" R and S had a McCord oiler driven by spring (belt) from the cam shaft. The advantage of the mechanical oiler is it begins and shuts down with the engine, whereas the exhaust supplied oiler begins when pressure builds (a few minutes after starting the engine) and runs on after the engine is turned off.

The Model K also has a McCord oiler, and the 1907/08 oiler supplies oil to the front bearing, each cylinder wall, and the rear shaft oiler.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 12:05 am:

Our N oiler before restoration:



And after:


Another early manifold:



On an early engine:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 02:35 am:

Hap,

I respectfully disagree. I was not rushing to judgement in my earlier post. I am not as easily persuaded that the turtle deck on this car came to a point as it did on the N and S runabout bodies as you are. The curve into the rear appears to be much more gradual and rounded than on an N. The R turtle deck's shape and size will accommodate a 30x3 tire. Also keep in mind that the overhead view of the N/S Runabout's turtle deck you provided shows the shape of the door and left side cover, not the sides of the deck or the outline the turtle deck sides make on the platform, which is all we have to go by here.

Body aside, yes it has step plates as I acknowledged in my first post, but it also has a mechanical oiler.

There are some pretty odd cars out there. One here in the Northeast has an N body but sits on an S roadster chassis. And there was a car in Maine that had something resembling an S Roadster body sitting on a Model R chassis. It would be helpful if the cars could talk and could tell us what they have been up to for the last 106 years, and who they really are.

Without further evidence, including the serial number, I suggest we agree to disagree on this one.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 06:43 am:

Hap and Trent (and others),

If there are holes for running board brackets in the frame, however with rivets, won't that tell us it is a 1907/08 frame, with factory "plugged" holes, also telling us this frame began as a Model N? If there are no running board bracket holes (riveted or not) then we would know it was a pre R/S frame?

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 06:56 am:

I forgot to ask, do we know if this has the early or later rear end supports? If this differential is original to the car, the older style supports will also help date the chassis (possibly with later engine, or even McCord oiler added)?

Ned and/or Dan, would it be possible to provide a pic or two of the frame, beside the step plates, to determine if any other factory holes were drilled for running board brackets? Also, an underneath shot from the rear of the rear end supports, to see if they are "bent" to 90 degrees where they intersect the axle housings (early) or continue at the support angle when they fasten to the axle housings? (Area circled below):


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 07:43 am:

Hard for me to draw straight, but if this is the original rear end, and a later (1907/08) one, I believe the support rod end would be in line with my roughly drawn line?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 07:54 am:

Rob,

From the photo it is hard for me to tell – and Ned will be able to tell us for sure if it is bent at the rear axle or not. I think your logic is great – but the photo is not that clear for me.

Ref the 1908 Ford Price list of Parts (reproduced in Trent’s Finder’s Guide – thank you Trent!) shows the rear radius rod with the bend at both ends as part number 59 (old style). The redesigned the bracket so the rod did NOT need to be bent at the rear axle but remained straight and the bracket hole was changed so it would line up. It is shown below. The date in the Trent’s Finders guide for the drawing change for the bracket the rear radius rod went into was 06/07/07. But it would likely take a while for the part to contracted out etc. That part and the radius rod would both need to be changed for the new radius rod to be used. And I would guess probably there would have been some time when both the old style and new style were used. Therefore the rear axle radius rod being early or late will not determine if the Body could only be a Model N or Model R (and of course the body may have been changed). As you pointed out, if the frame does not have the holes for the Model R or Model S running board brackets – then it would be an earlier Model N frame. And in that case if the frame was original to the car it would indicate the car started off as a Model N.

Lots of things to still discover – and again a great find. I’m glad someone had the wisdom to store the chassis so it didn’t become part of the scrap drives.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:20 am:

For Trent,

Yes, we can agree to disagree or in my case I just don’t see it yet and hope to eventually understand it better. I would recommend to anyone – take your advice over mine concerning this or just about any other early Ford question. You have seen a lot more of them and studied them a lot more than I have had a chance to look at them. I hope I can eventually see it correctly but right now it still looks more like a Model N or S pointed rear deck outline than the Model R outline to me. However I have a track record of not being able to visualize things correctly. Some folks were very patient with me when I could not see which Model T transmission pedal was depressed in an illustration a while back. I just didn’t see it for a while.

Good news while trying to find some additional information on the rear decks it appears that the Henry Ford has put the illustration of the 1907 Model N body back up on their web site (or it started working again for me) at: http://www.hfmgv.org/collections/Collections/library/product/Nparts.asp While not a high resolution illustration on the web, it does show the outline of both the trunk lid and the frame under it. I took that illustration and another Model R illustration and sort of adapted them / matched them up as best I could. It is not exactly to scale and by the time I’ve resized etc. it is clearly off some. You can tell the body brackets in the composite illustration do NOT line up perfectly – so again the composite is not to scale but hopefully still representative enough to be of some help But notice how the Model R trunk bottom as well as top parallels the body edge until it passes the rear body mount. While the Model N (also S) trunk lid and trunk bottom begin to taper or curve almost immediately after leaving the seat box area and before the rear body mount. Hopefully I have stayed within the fair use copyright rules. If you or someone else thinks I have stepped over them let me know and I’ll contact the Benson Ford and ask them what I owe them. [For Ned, they have the drawings for the Model R Body as well as the 1907 N and the Model S Roadster bodies. So if you want to reproduce the body yourself – the drawing for the body you chose would be very helpful. To my knowledge they do not have a copy of the early 1906 N body that is a little smaller than the 1907 and later N body.]



Hopefully Ned can post a photo taken from above or even better let me know where the curve starts – before or after the rear body bracket etc.

There are lots of things to still discover -- or in my own case maybe to better understand what others already see. Thanks for patience with me and also all your support over the years.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 11:18 am:

Hap,

We must go to the same optometrist because I'm seeing the traces of an Model N rear deck as well.

Aside from the deck, we basically have two incongruent features, buggy steps & mechanical oiler. The choice then becomes, which feature do we deem to be authentic. A mechanical oiler is very easy thing to add on, leaving little or no clues, and a clear upgrade. Adding buggy steps however, to a car that may have previously had running boards, should leave some clues as to the switch and would also not be an improvement.

Of course, there's the possibility that the whole car is just a "collection" of parts, assembled together to "make" a Model N. However, given the known history of the car and its apparent "untouched" patina, I don't believe this to be a possibility. I suppose an R or S engine could have been dropped in as a replacement at some time within the era of the car, but that would not change the car from an N to an R or S.

It will be interesting to see if the steps are riveted to the frame, or bolted, and if there are running board bracket holes that give evidence of either having rivets removed or of currently having rivets in them to plug the holes, or no holes at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 11:30 am:

The exhaust pressure oiler for the N had two outlets. The mechanicle oiler has three, requiring the front main be drilled and tapped. If the mechanical oiler was added, perhaps that could be a clue. I am seeing a N pointed turtle deck outline,as hap and jerry do. That is a wonderful find, however it turns out. Congrats!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Protexter on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 11:44 am:

Thank you for all of the kind words. We bought it from a friend who bought it last summer. How he heard about it I do not know.

I might be able to shine some light on if it is an N, R, or S. Really and truly, I'm not more partial to one or another so I'm not trying to push it one way or another.

The shape of the trunk in person looks more like an N than the R Someone had made sheet metal for the flat part of the back to cover the wood.

In the frame, there are no extra holes for running board brackets and it does have the N step plates.

As for the later oiler. I think that engine was swapped out after it was new. The reason why I think this is because the engine was not serial number stamped. When you bought a replacement engine, was it like a modern short block or was it a complete unit? Maybe the old oiler failed and that is why they had to get a new engine way back when? Also, the exhaust manifold has the fitting to attach the earlier oiler to. Did they use this same oiler after going to the mechanical oiler?

Thank you again for all your help and insight. There are going to be a lot more questions as we get into this but I feel that we have a really good start to this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 12:16 pm:

The frame with no "extra" holes for running boards tells us it's pre R/S. No engine number indicates (in all probability) a replacement. I know of an EFR (Early Ford Registry) member who has two Ns, both with un stamped engines. I believe that the rigid mounted aluminum crankcase, along with light (flexes easily) frame and hinged rods led to many broken crankcase s. Ford did not stamp replacement crankcase s with the idea the dealer would stamp the original number on the replacement crankcase.

Of course, these are events as I understand them, always subject to correction with more information. Looks like a great project. I look forward to seeing this car on the New London to New Brighton tour in a couple summers..... :-)

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 12:19 pm:

Ned Very nice car. What a dream to find a 1906-1908 Ford N R S car like that. I can only dream. Have fun restoring it. So far all I have is an Engine and parts. Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 12:30 pm:

Ned -- Stamp a "2" on your (Dan's) engine so it will be earlier than Rob's. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Protexter on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 01:44 pm:

Rob- I told Dan to have it ready this summer.

Mike- I was thinking of putting "EXP" on it for experimental. Then it would have to be the earliest one around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 02:17 pm:

You guys shouldn't be allowed to "collaborate". Ned, I have a spare radiator if you get to the point where you need it by next summer.

Also, there was a spare original body in CO. If you need the contact info, send a pm (I have no idea if it's still available).

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 06:54 pm:

If it ends up an N, you should be able to trade the mechanical oiler for an original pressure oiler. Several people have been looking for the McCord oiler. If you aren't a purist the McCord will do a better job, and the engine will not continue oozing oil when shut off. They are messy little cars. I love 'em.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 07:47 pm:

Neat! No connection to it but there is a coil box just listed in the classifieds, may just what you need along with a radiator to hear it run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:00 pm:

Ned
Happy Birthday. What a great present. NOW are you ready to RE-GIFT it to me? Ha Ha Enjoy that great Car.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren W. Mortensen on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:16 pm:

Great birthday present Ned!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 08:24 pm:

I should have said, for loan (radiator), but an original.

Enjoy, Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Monday, December 30, 2013 - 09:24 pm:

These are the same images that Hap posted, but hopefully a bit clearer. They are crops of the original factory drawings for the Model N and Model R body rear turtle deck.

The Model N body turtle deck curves in to form a sharp point at the rearmost point.

Model N Rear Body

The Model R body's turtle deck is a true semicircle from a point approximately 16 inches ahead of the rear edge of the body platform.

Model R Rear Body

Note that the radius for the outside edge of the turtle deck cover is 15-5/8 inches. Subtracting 1/2 inch for the deck cover overhang gives an outside radius of 15-1/8 inches. This should be the radius of the outside of the vertical walls of the turtle deck. The walls are marked as being 3/8 inches thick, so the inside radius should come to about 14-3/4 inches. A slightly fit for a 30x3 tire.

The Model N body drawing is dated April 20, 1907 and the R body drawing is dated April 23, 1907. The Model N and R were in production simultaneously from about April 1, 1907 until about mid to late August 1907. It is not uncommon to find drawings of an early Ford part dated after the part is known to have gone into production. In some cases the vendor or shop was working off of preliminary drawings or sketches; in other cases the change was made on the shop floor (Joe Galamb’s words) and the drafting department only caught up with it weeks or months after the change had occurred.

These drawings provide very few dimensions to someone who is trying to build an NRS runabout body. A retired Ford design engineer told me that these types of drawings are referred to as "package" drawings. Ford would provided the package drawing to the outside body manufacturer who then was given the instructions to produce a body that would meet these general dimensions. It was up to the outside vendor to fill in the details. Consequently, there are relatively few details included on the Model N drawing, and a great many detail variations in surviving NRS Runabout bodies. S Roadster bodies are somewhat more uniform since it appears that that all of them were built by the OJ Beaudette Company of Pontiac, MI, and over the relatively short production run of only 6 months. As long as the body met the package dimensions, it would fit on the car and Ford didn’t care about the details.

Similar variations in body design and construction also occurred on the 1911 torpedo bodies. There were several different manufacturers, and it is possible to distinguish them from small design details, especially around the door jams and the body cross braces. I am sure this is true of other Model T body styles and years as well.

Since a number of the eyes looking at these photos are experienced NRS Runabout owners, and they seem to think that the surviving part of the rear body platform is shaped to fit the Model N turtle deck, I will respect their judgment and concede the the point. This is a Model N.

Model N and R frames were produced simultaneously during the second and third quarters of 1907, but they are not all drilled for the running board brackets. N4999, a May 1907 car currently on display in the Henry Ford, is not drilled for running board brackets. The practice of drilling all frames for both running board brackets and step plate bracket rivets does not appear to have begun until about the start of Model S Runabout production in August of 1907. I have seen these frames with holes that have been both plugged by blank rivets, and also simply left as open holes. There are running board bracket holes in my Model N frame. They have been blocked with rivets. I also have two Model S Roadster frames. The step plate bracket holes have been blocked with rivets. So have the holes in the side and the top of the frame for the front fender rear irons. Only Model Ns used two front fender irons per fender, one at the front just behind the radiator, and a second located about 10 inches in front of the dash.

As an aside, 1911 torpedo and open runabouts had running board irons located closer together than on other body style cars. Original 1911 torpedoes and open runabout frames have been observed having been drilled for only the 1911 runabout running board pattern, drilled for both the standard running board irons and the standard iron location holes plugged with rivets, and with the standard iron location holes left open. Go figure. Maybe it was a Monday/Friday feature.

After studying the photos of this car in more detail, I think I can see the brackets for the front fender irons front and rear still in place. You guys need to check me on this since it appears that my eye sight is failing, but it looks like there is something attached to the frame at the points where a Model N’s front fender irons would attach, but the rods themselves have been cut off. The front fender irons were a relatively simple forging with an L-shaped bracket that attached to the frame, and a ˝ inch rod that went out to actually support the fender. Let me know if you can see something, or if I am continuing to hallucinate features that are not there.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess
Model N Rear BodyModel R Rear Body


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 07:12 am:

Trent,

Thank you so much for the additional drawings, clarification, and explanations. They will also provide some helpful background information for one of the questions on the Early Ford Registry site asking about Model S Roadster running board brackets see: http://earlyfordregistry.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1170 [Once Ford started riveting the running board brackets did they later go back on the S Roadster and use bolts to hold them onto the frame instead of Rivets? And did the S Roadster use any of the same holes that the S Runabout or N Runabout used for their running board brackets or the N step plate?] Clearly Ford did things differently concerning the holes for the running board brackets and step plate brackets. Often I am guilty of wanting a nice clean single answer but the with early Fords that is often not the case.

I believe you are correct that you can see the remains of he Model N front fender brackets on both sides of the car. Below is a zoomed in photo for the left side. It has the longest remaining part of the fender iron so it is easier to see. I’m sure higher resolution photos from a different angle would show them even better.



And thank you for a lot of the other additional details on they did things and also about the 1911 torpedo bodies. [For those who would like additional information on some of those differences please see Trent’s site http://jupiter.plymouth.edu/~trentb/ModelT/Torpedo2/TorJune16Y2K.html and scroll down towards the bottom comparing a Wilson body with a different body maker.] Again thank you for all your support for so many years to our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 10:18 am:

Earlier Tim M. mentioned the front main must be tapped for the third oiler when using a McCord oiler (instead of the two with the Model N pressure oiler).

I assumed (we know where that will lead me) the third line went into the front fitting where Model N has a grease cup fitting? However, I've never looked closely at the front of an R/S engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Balough on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 11:30 am:

This is the front plate for my S showing the hole for the fitting.S motor


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 12:08 pm:

Bruce,

I'm sure that's the same as an N. Makes sense that they would be th same anyway. I know of N owners who have skipped the rear oil point, placing the second oil line into the front opening and the grease cup to the tailhead.

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 12:40 pm:

If you were to build the N rear turtle deck, it should be the pointed arch (gothic arch) formula. Radius of the arch = 40 inches. Length will be 34" (back to front where tangent). I used the width as 31-1/2" so it could be off a little but that's undoubtedly where the design came from.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 04:07 pm:

My N's did not have a spot for a grease cup on the front main. It would have been a good idea but then " a better idea" slogan hadn't been coined yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 04:20 pm:

As you can see above, ours does. And it appears this early N (Ford review article, July 1906) does too, although it's difficult to see:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 05:28 pm:

Our Model N had many "improvements" in the day (running boards with fenders, rumble seat, cut out among others). The chassis seems original, although I wonder if the front was tapped for a grease cup?

The horn has a 1909 patent date, so I suspect the car was used into the early 10 s. has anyone else noticed a lube point on Model N s in the front (Hap or Trent)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 05:50 pm:

I am not Hap or Trent, but I will check my N this evening when I return home.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 06:17 pm:

Thanks Barry.

I've seen a Model N where one of the two lines went to the front, but maybe that was added?

We're off now, have a good evening,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 01:12 am:

Didn't someone on here have some old original body wood for a pattern for one of these cars not that long ago?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 11:28 am:

Please post future comments about this topic on the 2014 forum. The direct link to the new thread is: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/412066.html?1388593319 Note some of those "cliff hanger" questions are being addressed there even as you read this....

The link to the 2014 MTFCA forum in general is: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/411944.html

Respectfully moved forward,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 12:13 pm:

Re/ the body, it is wonderful to have an original body , but the originals weren't made very good and after 100 years can shrink in every direction , especially in height, up to an inch or more. Ned will have a wonderful opportunity to replace the missing upper part with woodworking techniques that will survive time much better. Sometime these bodies are even clad in aluminum for the paint to hold up much better on. With the high tech Baltic birch available now, that may be overkill, though. I think I have a full size paper pattern for the N body, so get in touch if that would help. Jerry Van should post a picture of his car to this thread. It is a beautiful N !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 12:22 pm:

Sorry, hap. I didn't catch that in time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 12:29 pm:

Tim not a problem -- thanks for all your support!

Please post future comments about this topic on the 2014 forum. The direct link to the new thread is: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/412066.html?1388593319 Note some of those "cliff hanger" questions are being addressed there even as you read this....

The link to the 2014 MTFCA forum in general is: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/411944.html

Respectfully moved forward,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Wednesday, January 01, 2014 - 05:45 pm:

My December 1906 N does not have a lube point on the front of the engine nor does the frame have drilled holes for running board brackets.


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