Wanted: 1911 Model T Touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Classifieds: Wanted: 1911 Model T Touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 12:48 pm:

I'm still looking for a 1911 Model T Touring car in running order. I'd like to find one that has it's original interior and engine. I'm looking for a preservation candidate not a fully restored T - one that's either original or had an older restoration that's starting to show some age. I lost one in Arizona so I know they are still out there; anyone feel like parting with theirs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 12:59 pm:

http://www.hcca.org/classifieds.php?cars


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 01:04 pm:

This `11 Ford touring has engine #87144 and was restored in the 1950`s It still has most of the original upholsteryClosed valve engine runs excellent. Ruckstell, and many other accessories
Nice original brass and sheet metal offered at $30,000

jjtvd@sbcglobal.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 02:39 pm:

Thanks for the heads up guys! Also, Ed, have you seen this car in person?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 04:06 pm:

Engine # 87144 is a 1912 model year car made in mid November 1911.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Mc Willie on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 05:46 pm:

I have not seen this car, but, I do know the owner and he is a good guy. He has been collecting big classic cars and brass cars for a long time and is very reputable. What I find particularly fascinating is the 1952 California Horseless Carriage, 3-digit license plate-this car has been around a long time!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 06:00 pm:

I thought 87,000 was mid-December?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 07:55 pm:

According to Bruce's Big Book as I call it, it is probly mid-December. Nice looking car, wish there were more pics of it to verify body style, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 07:57 pm:

According to Bruce's Big Book as I call it, it is probly mid-December. Nice looking car, wish there were more pics of it to verify body style, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 07:58 pm:

Woops! how'd that happen! My bad!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 08:15 pm:

No I haven't seen the car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 08:25 pm:

Bruce's numbers are in error about a month to the right. It was built in November 1911. Cars with serial numbers in the 90,000 range were leaving the factory in the first week of December 1911 according to the records in the accounts receivables archive at the Benson Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 08:36 pm:

Interesting. Is there a documentation source for this beyond having to go there and pull the accounts receivables records?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 09:42 pm:

Yes, I paid for copies of records that prove what I am saying. I would happily send copies to you. I have posted them countless times on this forum over the past ten years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 10:01 pm:

Not to hijack this thread but are all 1911 cars skewed to the right one month? My 11 touring as a engine number of 53244. I checked and it should be a May 1911 build.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:11 am:

I haven't seen the car either, but I would like to! My car is 85532, which I figure to be mid-December. About two weeks earlier than 87144, which would be end of November, 1911.

I have contacted the seller, not because I want to buy the car, but to compare some notes. There are very few of these cars around-- especially with fore-doors... whether you call it a late 1911, or 1912! I won't get into a pissing match about the date you call your car, if you don't get into one about what date I call mine!

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 08:22 am:

Thanks for the clarification Royce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 08:59 am:

Keith, I'll let you know all about the car after I buy it! And Tim, don't even think about it! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Hanson on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 10:29 am:

Here is another authoritative source to consider...

According to the most recent MTFCI judging guidelines (7th edition published July 2016), the 1911 "Model Year" covered serial numbers 34901 to 88900 and covered calendar months "Jan 1911 to Dec 1911."

The 1912 Model Year is presented as "Jan 1912 to Oct 1912" and covers serial numbers 88901 to 157424.

So, according to the standards by which Stynoski candidates are judged, the car would be considered a 1911.

Those are the standards for MTFCI and may or may not represent the opinion of this poster (lol).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 12:36 pm:

DANG IT!!! I lost another one - man did that sell fast!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 12:59 pm:

They usually do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:30 pm:

You have to know what you are looking at and pull your wallet like a gunslinger for the good cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 05:27 pm:

That car sold in less than 24 hours - I know, since I emailed him last night several times and never heard from him until I called him today to find out it was sold. You can't pull you wallet fast enough for that one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 06:06 pm:

Thats ok, another one will come along. A lot of interesting stuff is appearing lately. Post a wanted ad at Fordbarn, HAMB, and the HCCA, who knows what will show up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 07:22 pm:

After all that, I'm still searching so if you own a 1911 with original interior and engine and you are thinking about selling, let me know because I have the cash ready!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

Well a 1912 touring just popped up. And how come the 1912 torpedo is still for sale?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 07:26 am:

I'm looking for a 1911, even though that '12 is a decent car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 09:12 am:

Phil I concentrated my research on shipping dates of cars that were in the 80,000 to 110,000 serial number range. I did not put any effort into the serial number range of your car but I will check my spread sheets to see if I recorded any examples.

You have to remember that when Bruce wrote the article on 1912 serial numbers it was part of a series of Vintage Ford articles from perhaps the 1980's. The Accounts Receivables archive was discovered by Trent Boggess long after all those Vintage Ford articles had already been published as Bruce's "black book" in the 1990's. Bruce did not have the information to use when the book's contents were written. I asked Bruce about this during a phone call from the hotel across the street from the Benson Ford and he gave this explanation to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:05 am:

Phil the closest thing I recorded to your serial number 53244 was the following from the spread sheet that I made in April 2008 while at the Benson Ford.

The following shipment left the Highland Park Plant on July 15, 1911:

Touring cars serial numbered 61156, 61153, 61128, 61168, 61170, 61174 sold to Standard Motor Car Co, Los Angeles, CA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:59 am:

Thanks for the offer, Royce. It is an interesting and frustrating thing to study. Searching online, I found a smattering of the records you have posted, but nothing complete and would be interested in a copy and glad to compensate accordingly for the trouble.

In your assessment, how does this factor in to the discussion?:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm

It's more detailed than what's on P. 506 of Bruce's book, still has the same overall numbers by month, but at the bottom credits,

"Data compiled from Accession 623, "Accounts Receivable, 1904-1914," at the Research Center, Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village."

There's no indication who is the author though I have a hunch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 11:20 am:

Walter on that page is a statement that I find misleading at best.

It is :
Quote - "Data for 1912 is further confused by the significant number of engine numbers listed in the early months of that year which are out of numerical order. Serial numbers as low as in the 86,000 range are mixed in with numbers as high as in the 113,000 range between January and April 1912." End Quote

The fact is that when you look at all the data in its entirety you can see that on a certain day the grand majority of cars being shipped had engine numbers that were in a certain serial number range, and thus they had to have been made recently as they were the majority and they have the highest serial numbers. Ford not only serialized engines, they all have casting dates on them too. From surviving examples we know that the serial numbers match the ones found in the Accounts receivables, and the dates of the castings have been found to be typically a week or so before the car shipped from the factory. The data is not confusing in the least. It is clear that engines were assembled and serialized and moved around in no particular order after they were assembled and serialized.

So occasionally you see one or maybe even a handful of outlier serialized engines that might have been assembled and serialized a month or more earlier mixed in with hundreds that were made a week earlier.

There is no one who has compiled all the data into a file that can be used to show the real picture. I only saved what few pages that seemed interesting to me at the time. The docents charged me $35 per image, and it was a process that wasted thirty or more minutes per image including having to fill out the required consent and licensing paperwork for each image.

I am not sure what exactly you want to see in terms of documentation but bottom line all of us would like to have a copy of the entire Accounts Receivables to be able to study without the docents hanging over your shoulder the entire time.

Nowadays they have removed each page from the ledger books, and each page is in a plastic sleeve. When I was there in 2007 - 2008 the books were intact, and you could turn the pages your self while wearing white cotton gloves. Piles of pencil shavings and lead dust would be on the table when the book was lifted, as if the guy had just written the entries that day.


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