FS 1912 Touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Classifieds: FS 1912 Touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 10:44 am:

This 1912 touring car is the last of the all-brass Ts! It combines the character of the earlier brass cars with the engineering upgrades and smoother styling of the later cars - the best of both worlds. The car starts, runs, and drives very well. It has a closed valve motor, correct 1912 carb, cleaned and sealed gas tank and fuel system,accessory spring shocks, correct and complete brass in good condition, good condition leather interior, 12 rivet rear end, older but good tires, very good condition sheet metal and framing. In all, a good condition good looking touring car. Offered at $24,0001912 touring car.Brass is complete and in good condition.Top is correct and in good condition.Engine runs well, #35935, correct 1912 carbDriver controls are correct and in good condition.Heinze coil box, correct speedometerLeather upholstery is in good condition throughout.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 10:52 am:

A couple more photos! Also the engine # is 35935. This puts it as a 1911 engine, but it may still be original to the car due to scrambling factory practices at the time. At least that is what a knowledgeable friend tells me. The carb is correct for 1912. It starts and runs well.Engine runs well, #35935, original 1912 carbFront View


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 12:31 pm:

Hey, Bill, just curious; is that an open valve engine? The serial number would indicate a January, 1911 build which I believe would still be open valve? Anyway, nice car but it's not the '11 I'm looking for!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:04 pm:

Interesting that it has the top straps at the windshield hinge. With that early of eng. number I would expect it to have the long straps down to the front fender irons, as well as the two piece dash.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:07 pm:

Bill, says at the top it's a closed valve engine...probly a late '11. I have to check the date in the book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 01:08 pm:

PM'ng you William!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 02:17 pm:

Is the serial number on the right hand side near the timer cover? If it is, number 35935 should still be an open valve engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 02:25 pm:

Engine 35935 is a Jan. 1912 build. It is a 1912 model. It could have a closed vale engine, but many from that time period still had open valve engines and the 1910 style front axles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 02:31 pm:

According to Bruce McCally (RIP) that number is January 1911 engine.I suspect the car was re-powered. I'm still interested in the car despite that and the wrong color.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 02:33 pm:

According to Bruce McCalley's book, 35,935 was produced Jan. 18, 1911 so it would be an early '11 engine probably with an open valve as enclosed valve engine's came around late March 1911 I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

Probably had a later motor in it and someone in the past (probably when they painted it white) found an early '11 engine to put in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 03:04 pm:

Hi Guys, thanks for the interest. Tim tells me that the first digit of the serial number could be a 9 - apparently it is easy to make that mistake because the stampings are not very deep. if it is a 9, that number would put this engine in the middle of the 1912 production. I will visit the car by next weekend to take extra photos and confirm the engine number. The engine does have a closed valve chamber - it is not an open valve engine. If anyone wants a photo in particular, let me know and I'll try to get a good shot for you. Cheers, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 03:08 pm:

One more thing, since I am not an expert at this, I'm not familiar with how the front axles differ from year to year. So I'll take photos of that assembly. What area (s) of the axle do you need to see to make a decision? I assume the main thing of interest on the rear axle is the differential case?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 03:24 pm:

Bill...add to that a pic of the universal ball cap to verify if the car has a two-piece driveshaft or not. See ya later!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 03:52 pm:

Appears to have "Float-A-Ford accessory front shocks (very cool) BUT the front axle appears to have the definite "dip" indicating a '26 - '27.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 06:14 pm:

Do you have the front door units for it. I think they were removable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Saturday, March 04, 2017 - 06:55 pm:

No Ted, I do not have the doors or filler panels. I have seen them for sale on this site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 09:03 am:

95935 would be December 1911. That is a little early for that body style but not impossible. The important thing would be whether the title matches the engine number in any case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Rosenthal in Cincinnati Oh on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 09:59 am:

Bill:
Not the expert here, but I believe your body style would have been the last of at least 4 distinct 1912 touring body evolutions, likely appearing in the spring of 1912. Immediately prior to this body, the same tub side touring with the single piece dash had rear door handles. If looking for a front door and front door dummy panel, be aware that there were at least 4 1912 Touring body suppliers, and that others have found these fore door shapes to be unique to those respective body suppliers.
Regards,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:59 am:

Royce, didn't you mean "35xxx" for Dec. 1911? In my conversation with Bill, I suggested he take another closer look at the number, I think it IS maybe 95935, which if I recall correctly, makes it a very late Feb. 1912 motor. That makes more sense, given the body style and such.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 11:08 am:

Royce, here's what I just gleaned from Walt Higgin's post on Bill Elliots search for an '11, a link to '11-'12 production numbers. Weird part of it all, is how these numbers bounce all over the place. Yet, in Bruces "big book" as I call it, one can fairly decipher 95935 as being about the end of February. Too confusing!

FEBRUARY 1912 92,001 to 95,900 per Ford's published data. Production was listed as 3,900


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

Remember that they also issued serial numbers to Canada in blocks of numbers so there will be blocks of numbers missing depending on when they did this and how many at a time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 04:22 pm:

Hi guys, I visited my car in storage and took some photos that Tim Wren requested. While doing that I looked at the engine number which was stamped into a rectangular boss cast into the block adjacent to the oil filler tube. The engine number is 135935, which puts it into July's production I believe. See photo. I missed the "1" on the first look. Also, the car has the "builder plate" attached to the firewall that says the car number is 129095. See photo 2. Someone wanted a shot of the front axle, so here it is. If you want closeups, let me know.Engine # 135935Car # 129095


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 04:23 pm:

BTW, there were no stamped numbers anywhere else on the engine, and I think my car needs a bath!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 04:26 pm:

One more, you may want to see the upholstery better...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 06:34 pm:

Tim,

The Accounts Receivables records show most cars in the 90 - 97,000 serial number range shipping in December 1911. Bruce's book is flat out wrong.

William the car is lovely. It is well worth the asking price. I am surprised it is not sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 06:57 pm:

Thanks Royce, it's a good car. It will find a good home. Tell your friends! Cheers, Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 08:14 pm:

Your body style is the late '12 configuration, slab side without outside door handles. Mine is like that and is a May production car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 09:52 pm:

William-
It is a handsome car, at a reasonable price.
What body maker is it?
Do you have the fore-doors for it?

I am surprised it has not sold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:38 pm:

Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World by Bruce McCalley was published in 1994. At the time it represented the best of what was known about the Model T, the state of the art, so to speak. At the time Bruce published it, nobody knew that in hindsight after 23 years, that the book would be published just before large bodies of information on the Model T would become available to researchers and historians. About November 11, 1995 Accession 1701, the Ford Engineering drawings and records would be opened for Research. I was there, as was Bruce and John Regan.

On April 8, 1997 at about 5:10 in the evening, Accession 623 The Accounts Receivable Records were first discovered in an old cardboard box. The accounts Receivable ledgers were simply thrown in before being delivered to the archives. Again, I know because I was there, and I found them. I realized what the records represented when I found the shipping date for Model T #1001, a car that belonged to a friend of mine in Minnesota.

That evening in an email to Bruce, John Regan, Mark Cameron, Kim Dobbins and Jay Klehfoth, I described the what I had found. All were quite impressed at the discovery of this information, and once I discovered that there was information on the late 1912 B numbered engines, Bruce began planning his next trip to the archives, and began working on an early Model T serial numbers update. The conclusions of his study were later published The Vintage Ford. The content of that article can now be found in The Model T Encyclopedia. This is the web address to that information:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm

To say that the information in Bruce's book is wrong is disrespectful to Bruce's work. At the time that the book was published, the information was current. But Bruce also realized that the knowledge base about the Model T was expanding rapidly. Rather than author a second or third edition, Bruce decided to publish the Model T Encyclopedia on line where it could be quickly and easily be updated.

Again, the information in Bruce's book is not wrong, it represents what was known at the time of publication. He was continually updating as new information became available. The updated information can be found in the Encyclopedia on line. That information is current up to the time of Bruce's passing. Taken as a whole, Bruce's work, both printed and online, is a testament to 40 years of effort documenting the evolution of the Model T Ford.

Please be respectful of that.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:40 pm:

Model T Ford: The Car That Changed the World by Bruce McCalley was published in 1994. At the time it represented the best of what was known about the Model T, the state of the art, so to speak. At the time Bruce published it, nobody knew that in hindsight after 23 years, that the book would be published just before large bodies of information on the Model T would become available to researchers and historians. About November 11, 1995 Accession 1701, the Ford Engineering drawings and records would be opened for Research. I was there, as was Bruce and John Regan.

On April 8, 1997 at about 5:10 in the evening, Accession 623 The Accounts Receivable Records were first discovered in an old cardboard box. The accounts Receivable ledgers were simply thrown in before being delivered to the archives. Again, I know because I was there, and I found them. I realized what the records represented when I found the shipping date for Model T #1001, a car that belonged to a friend of mine in Minnesota.

That evening in an email to Bruce, John Regan, Mark Cameron, Kim Dobbins and Jay Klehfoth, I described the what I had found. All were quite impressed at the discovery of this information, and once I discovered that there was information on the late 1912 B numbered engines, Bruce began planning his next trip to the archives, and began working on an early Model T serial numbers update. The conclusions of his study were later published The Vintage Ford. The content of that article can now be found in The Model T Encyclopedia. This is the web address to that information:

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/11-12Ser.htm

To say that the information in Bruce's book is wrong is disrespectful to Bruce's work. At the time that the book was published, the information was current. But Bruce also realized that the knowledge base about the Model T was expanding rapidly. Rather than author a second or third edition, Bruce decided to publish the Model T Encyclopedia on line where it could be quickly and easily be updated.

Again, the information in Bruce's book is not wrong, it represents what was known at the time of publication. He was continually updating as new information became available. The updated information can be found in the Encyclopedia on line. That information is current up to the time of Bruce's passing. Taken as a whole, Bruce's work, both printed and online, is a testament to 40 years of effort documenting the evolution of the Model T Ford.

Please be respectful of that.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Sunday, March 05, 2017 - 10:50 pm:

Sorry for the double post. The Forum software is giving me fits tonight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:43 am:

To all, the car is still for sale as of this moment with several parties interested. I will make myself available for brief conversation at work 9A-4P at 866-338-4006 ext158. Serious inquiries, please.

So we now know the engine was built in July 1912 and is almost certain to be the original engine, that the body is the last of the 4 types, that the body number (I called it a builder plate) does not reflect the build sequence of the cars at Ford, and that the car is essentially correct as originally built.

There have been some repairs along the way, notably at the universal joint, and perhaps a front axle replacement. Waiting for someone who knows for sure to comment on the axle. The car does not have the fore-doors or their filler panels, it does not have its tool kit, and it has a large cocoa mat floor covering in the rear compartment. Otherwise it is complete and correct. The front and rear suspensions have period aftermarket "shock absorbers". I would recommend replacing the rear tires, the fronts and all 4 wheels are good. The brass is correct and looks good, but there are some dinks here and there. Expect normal paint touch up work on the frame and mechanical bits, but the body and fender paint is good.

Thanks to all for a great education. If anyone wants additional photos of these details, please contact me. Cheers, Bill.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 07:08 am:

William,

I will be leaving Richmond, Indiana later today.

I dropped off at the MTFCA Museum yesterday.

I have to pick up in Ohio - then head to Newark, NJ
to drop off - then Monroe, CT to pick up - then to
Philadelphia, PA to drop off.

I will be driving thru Pennsylvania in a couple days and have room in my enclosed trailer to transport this if someone buys your Model T.

Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Roberts, York, Pennsylvania on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 08:45 pm:

I am curious about the strong grain on the firewall. Not what I would have expected. Is this a replacement using modern plywood?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 06:30 am:

Hi Marc, It looks like when this was restored years ago, they did use a type of plywood. It has no knots in it, but the grain is more prominent than firewalls you see today. The mounting hardware all looks like the original brass hardware.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 08:20 am:

Good point Trent - Thanks. Bruce loved the T and performed a wonderful service for us.

The trove of knowledge about many things is constantly expanding....I remember when folks thought Pluto was a planet.

Modern technology, with the ability to add new discovery to previously published facts is awesome indeed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Strickling on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 09:10 am:

We now know Pluto is a dog. But Goofy must be a guy because he wears clothes. What's up with that anyway?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 01:20 pm:

Bruce was a very modest man. The night after I first went to the Benson Ford I emailed Bruce to tell him what I had found and how different it was from his book's information. He was aware of it already, and in his words "Any book is frozen in time from the date it goes to be printed". He was a great guy and I feel price lager to have known him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

Stupid I phone. "Privileged" is the word.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Cicciarelli on Wednesday, March 08, 2017 - 04:51 pm:

Royce,
That is a perfect quote from Bruce. I've known several old timers who were veritable encyclopedias with regards to their particular historical interests, but never wrote books in fear of one day finding out something that was inaccurate. Unfortunately they have since taken what they knew to the grave. It's much better. I think, to put out the best reference you can at the time with the understanding that new information continues to turn up and may contradict the accepted information at the time of publication.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Hoffer on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 09:37 am:

UPDATE: I have learned that the rear axle is a later unit, not a 12 rivet axle. The front axle is apparently correct, with the correct mounting points for the wishbone. And the cocoa mat in the rear floor area turns out to be correct after all. The top is a cloth top - it's very well made, elegant and in beautiful condition - but is not the leatherette material that Ford originally used. The car is not a perfect concours car, but it is in good condition, shows well, and has that well cared for but driven look about it. I would say it was restored probably in the 60s or 70s and has had normal maintenance since.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Leach on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 01:11 am:

I know a gentleman in arizona. He came to me the other day & said he wants a touring car. he is looking for a runner. He has limited old car skills so is not looking for a fixer upper. He met someone with a brass car & had so much fun he wants one for his own. Someone did a good job. I will refer any in the 10K range. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 02:53 am:

Bill,your comment about the front axle being replaced may also be correct The front spring is the later type with the chopped ends, rather than the correct tapered leaf spring. I just wish your car was closer!!!!!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 05:46 am:

Good luck trying to find a "running" non-fixer upper brass era car for 10K! I've been running a want ad for at least a year now, looking for a correct running 1911 T and haven't found one, and I've got 25K so GOOD LUCK!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Elliott on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 05:47 am:

That last comment was for Craig!


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