Need trans advice

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Model T Ford Forum: Classifieds: Need trans advice
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Cobb on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 05:48 pm:

I'm thinking of buying my first T and test drove one today. I have one big concern - in low there a LOT of what sounds to me like gear whine - actually more of a growl. The seller says it's due to Kevlar bands, but reverse and the brake don't growl. Is growling in low serious, or just annoying?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 06:11 pm:

Beware of a transmission using Kevlar- they can cause some serious damage to the drums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

I run Kevlar in all three of my T's without ever a problem. If you drive it right they won't hurt a thing and will last forever. I don't think the band material would cause a growling sound. There is probably some slop in the triple gears. If that's the case, likely reverse will be a little noisy too. The trans brake does not use the triple gears, so it will not growl.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 01:36 pm:

Growling in low pedal is not a good sign.. Negotiate accordingly with caution.. Good Luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 02:45 pm:

Yes, Tim, Kevlar is just awful. With many many thousands of T's on the road and probably 1/2 of them running Kevlar and the other 1/2 running anything else, you occasionally hear of a 100 year old transmission drum cracking. Awful...just awful.

Years ago, upon inspection, my dad's '19 hack had cracked and brazed drums in it's old transmission. It had seen cotton bands it's whole life. Imagine. Got new drums, a rebuild, Kevlar bands and is now living a 2nd life driving all over the hills of E. Tenn. and beating the pants off of it.

If someone is careless enough, anyone can break anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 03:21 pm:

Yes, exactly what I'm talking about- be cautious of a transmission that has been using kevlar. The drums were designed to use cotton.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 04:28 pm:

I think its unfair to blame broken drums on the driver, ie bands too tight, heavy foot pedal, incorrect engagement, braking, etc. There have been an excessive amount of broken drums using Kevlar. Plain and simple. Do drums brake for other reasons? Of course, but the number of folks having problems with Kevlar suggests something is not right. Ask Larry Blair of the Tin Shed what he thinks of Kevlar.
However I can't see how growling is caused by band linings. Most Ts growl somewhat in either low reverse or braking. If unsure, have an experienced T guy drive it and give his opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 07:28 pm:

The only way...the ONLY way that Kevlar will break a drum is if it is allowed to overheat the drum. Drums don't simply explode while sitting in the garage overnight.

I'll wager to say that at any tour, at least 2/3 of the drivers have absolutely no idea how to properly drive their car. All the revving and cacophony to simply get rolling as well as riding the brakes down hills or using brakes to simply slow down rather than using the throttle to effect same tells me that their teacher had no idea how to drive the car and neither do they. If a driver cannot start the car in low gear at or nearly at idle on level pavement, then they have not fully mastered their vehicle

Add to the mix a worn out low speed notch and the installer stuffing the bands in without any regard to roundness, and you bet...there are going to be broken drums.

Kevlar is tougher than cotton. Period. That doesn't make it bad...just tougher.

If the car is maintained properly and driven as designed, and the bands are slack enough to not drag more than any other lining, disasters would be a rare thing indeed. Drive the car like it has cotton linings and you'll be fine...Oh, and you'll probably never have to spend time replacing Kevlar bands, which will free up time to help your friends with cotton bands to change theirs.

And to the OP, regarding growling: some of the noisiest transmissions out there are rebuilt transmissions with nice new bushings and mix and matched new and old parts. Growling is not in and of itself a terrible thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 08:32 pm:

Kevlar is for folks who don't believe in the tried and true original system of cotton. Kevlar is to tough for the drums- period. Cotton is the best as it wears itself out- not the drums.

Think about it for a moment. The reason Kevlar isn't replaced as often as cotton is because the drums are taking all of the abuse.

I would be highly suspicious of any band material that doesn't wear itself out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 08:51 pm:

The T was designed to run on cotton bands, two-piece valves, Babbitt thrust washers and non-detergent oil. I don't use any of those as there are better, more convenient, or safer alternatives.

And by the way, if you think dirty oil and cotton bands will not wear out a drum over time, think again.

I don't intend to try to convince you or anyone else, as I know that much of the "no Kevlar, ever" opinion held by many is an opinion held out of fear, and will NEVER take into consideration the myriad items that combine to create heat in the transmission and how to minimize, alleviate or eliminate it. Fear is a strong motivator, so that's the end of that story. Myself, I'm not afraid of it, and I understand it's properties, so I've managed to drive many thousands of miles on Kevlar with no visible change to the drums or damage to the transmission and many others have, too. I guess we must be imagining our success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 09:42 pm:

You couldn't be more wrong as I have no fear of kevlar. I just know that it is too hard on the drums. All you have to do is search the forum for proof.

My point is to educate folks and that cotton works perfectly and it won't wear or damage your drums like kevlar can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 09:46 pm:

Save your breath, Scott. Consider yourself educated by another "expert".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 06:47 am:

Sarcasm as such is detrimental to the advancement of the hobby.

No one needs to be an expert to know that cotton will not damage or wear your drums like Kevlar can. It's basic common sense...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 08:41 am:

Telling every new person that kevlar bands will destroy their car is detrimental. Might as well say don't waste your money on a model t, the people who own them can be jerks. Drums break cause they are one hundred years old, done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 09:14 am:

I apologize for any one who I offended. But the most important thing to remember about model t fords is that you will never get back your investment or time. You will I promise have problems, it will break, be expensive to repair. It will frustrate you, confuse you. When you take something apart to fix, you will likely find other expensive things to fix you didn't know about. Buy a model t because it makes you smile and you love it! People here aren't jerks, they do want to help. Also don't get upset when someone sells you a part or car that turns out to need repair, not everyone is a professional and or a expert. I am not, but feel that together as a group we can come close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 10:20 am:

Martin, Kevlar is not going to make the transmission growl, there are other issues in the transmission causing that. Take Genes advise and negotiate accordingly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Cobb on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 11:55 am:

Thanks to you all for the info. I didn't mean to start a fight between the pro- and con-Kevlar people!
I've decided to pass on this car, too bad because it is very nice in most other ways, but being new to T's I'm being very cautious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 01:47 pm:

I reread this post in its' entirety and I don't see a single statement that says Kevlar will destroy your car.

As stewards of the hobby I believe we need to be careful not to contribute to plethora a misinformation being put out there about Model Ts and other early cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 03:02 pm:

Martin

did you pass on it because of the band material?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 04:16 pm:

Perhaps reconsider, if you wait until you find a model t without any issues, you may be looking a long time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 04:17 pm:

Tim, I did apologize :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Cobb on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 04:47 pm:

Scott,
After reading the pros and cons, Kevlar does not scare me. Even if it did it's not all that hard to change bands. But hoping that the grinding isn't putting steel chips into the oil, or pulling the engine and tearing into the trans looking for the source of a funny noise does scare me!
Thanks again to all for your comments.
Martin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Cobb on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 04:54 pm:

Scott,
After reading the pros and cons, Kevlar does not scare me. Even if it did it's not all that hard to change bands. But hoping that the grinding isn't putting steel chips into the oil, or pulling the engine and tearing into the trans looking for the source of a funny noise does scare me!
Thanks again to all for your comments.
Martin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank - Three Way, TN on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 05:11 pm:

I agree with Tim. We do need to be careful to not spread misinformation about our Model T's to the detriment of the hobby. People have different experiences with different ways of doing things. One person's experience does not necessarily make something a fact. Stating an opinion as if it were a hard fact is not doing a prospective owner any favors, and I'm glad this prospective owner understands that.

Model T's are noisy. They all make their own sounds. If that car is a decent deal, I would get with another T owner and have a look inside the transmission cover. It might be fine. You could have a look at the drums and bands for obvious problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 06:35 pm:

Martin

you're welcome.
as for noise, the T has a planetary transmission and all of the gears are engaged all of the time. They are straight-cut gears and nearly all make noise in low and reverse. Some more than others. As the gears are in constant mesh, nothing is grinding in the normal sense of it. Also, T's will constantly be shedding small quantities of metal into the oil. Most of us use a transmission screen and magnet for that (even though not original for a T) and is a very smart addition to any T.

You'll find your car eventually. Have fun on your search.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 12:29 am:

We need to consider when the Poster is a New Person like someone looking for his first car that the thread doesn't get into a pissing match over which is better...

A new person likely has no idea about either option and the one here in discussion did not give the tried and true Cottonwood Bands that many other guys love even a word.

I recently received a PM from a poster asking a question that he was afraid to post because he didn't want to start a War?? In a way this is sad because now he only got the info from one member and not the collective of our group of experts..

FWIW


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 08:18 am:

I strongly believe that most of the noise in a T transmission is the bushings in the triple gears. I think I work on as many transmissions as anyone on this forum. The flange on the bushings are ALWAYS WORN OFF. I always measure the flange and have never found one that is not worn off. This allows the triple gears to ride against the flywheel. This is steel rubbing on steel. If you will look at the flywheel you can see a shiny circle where the triple gears have been rubbing on the flywheel. It is silly to blame transmission noise on Kevlar bands.
trani


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 08:25 am:



Little late, but couldn't resist!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 02:08 pm:

I have a very low mileage unmolested T and several restored T's. The transmission in the original car is very quiet and smooth. My other cars have rebuilt transmissions that were done to recommended specs and are all noisy by comparison and have been from the start. I can't explain it but assume that most of the noise is the result of mixing and matching parts. My practice has always been to use the best available parts I have for a rebuild and that results in some noise. Sometimes it diminishes as the parts wear in together and in one case a rebuild that I did many years ago actually was the quietest right before it need another rebuild. Clearly if the shoulders are worn on the triple gear bushings there will be lots of noise but even if they are not worn there are enough moving parts in a planetary transmission to make noise without there being anything wrong and perhaps the only thing not contributing to that noise are the band linings whatever they are made of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 04:10 am:

As far as Kevlar bands are concerned, I wouldn't use anything else. I haven't put 10,000 miles on our "Beater" '25 coupe, but I have "tested" it. Long story short, sorta. I got caught on a country dirt road here in NW. MO. after the frost had gone out. For those of you that live in an area that has hard freezing winters, you know what I'm talking about. I had one of my daughters and her 4 year old son with me. We had to get out, or it was going to be a heck of a long walk. We got through the 100 yards or so flat area OK, but then there was a small hill, about 50 yards or so. We were cutting ruts up to 6" deep in the loose mud. When we hit the hill, we stopped after a short distance. I backed up and hit it again, and went a few feet farther, and then backed and hit it again advancing about two or three feet at a time. We did this MANY times, after each assault, I would back down and let things cool down for a few minutes before hitting it again, all the while still cutting ruts up to 6" deep. We finally got to a paved road and the old girl got us back to town. No overheating with a flat tube radiator and no broken drums. I REALLY tested the old girl, but I used some common sense. That trip probably amounted to many, many miles of normal driving. I did have to take up the low band a 1/4 turn or so when we got back, haven't had to adjust it since. As I said, I wouldn't use anything else. JMHO Dave


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