I purchased this 1913 touring car in 2013 from a family that owned it since 1953. It appears to have been restored in the 1960s. It runs and drives well. The asking price is $16,000.
The car is located in Gardner, KS.
The engine number is from September 1913. The car has leather seats, the backs appear to be original but the cushions were redone, probably in the 1960s.
I added a few more photos at https://photos.app.goo.gl/5ammrz13VnFXZ9bG3 including the engine number, leather seats, and coil box.
Brad, I see in the pictures that it has the '13 style doors that go all the way down to the splash aprons. Does it have the metal brace under the back doors that many of cars with the '13 style doors have? Just wondering....
Good question but I’d imagine that by that late in 1913 it should come from the factory that way.
You can see the braces in one of the pictures.
Please call John @ 352-256-7234 about your car.
Brad I would like to talk with you.
Please contact me. I am very interested in your car. My number is 740-404-1439
Brad this is John Wofford please call me tonight about the T. I will driving through Canada tomorrow and will not have phone service for the next five days. 352-256-7234
Try emailing me firstname.lastname@example.org
Is the Model T still for sale? Thanks.
The car is still for sale.
I had an interested buyer, but he wouldn't be able to purchase the car until mid-August. I would rather sale the car in the next few weeks.
Based upon the engine number, isn't this car technically a 1914 model since Ford's fiscal period ended in August. If so, wouldn't the coil box be stamped steel and the color of the body be a dark blue or black?
I believe that the fiscal year changed to August in 1914. The fiscal year of 1913 ended in October, 1913. 1914 had a shortened fiscal year of about 10 months.
. being blocks were cast many months in advance in 1913 1914 then stacked ..the later cast blocks were more accessible.. wooden box or metal etc shouldnt be an issue.
The model year dates actually conflict with the fiscal year end dates according to mtfca - see below.
MODEL YEAR DATES: September 1912 to August 1913 approx.
Is there an expert that can shed some light on this discrepancy?
I may be wrong, but having a very correct 1913 myself and having studied them for several years, I would wager that the car for sale here is a "put together car" from parts assembled many years ago. There are just little details that are wrong that I can spot in the limited photo's that are there. The body to wood firewall nuts should be hex and not square. The screws holding the hod former to the wood firewall should be oval head and not flat, there is no body number plate above the steering column, The front fenders are not identical (one having the reinforcing rib through the widest part and the other being void of the rib).. There are just details like that which you often find when cars are assembled from a collection of parts. When you add the fact that the "1913" engine is actually a 1914 model year, it adds up to assembled car in my opinion. Those were details that hadn't been flushed out back in the 60's or before. Again, I could be wrong, and the errors I point out are just the result of changes that were made over the years, but most likely, that particular touring car was not born at the factory as you see it.
Now, having said all that, the price isn't all that out of line. And the core components seem to be there. Sometimes, the fun of this hobby can be buying a car that needs the last little push up hill to make it factory correct. This could be one of those opportunities.
Sorry to hear that I have an assembled car. It is certainly a surprise to me. I believe that it would also have been a surprise the gentleman that purchased it back in 1953. I apologize for presenting it as authentic 1913 touring car.
No one can make that determination unless they view your car in person.
If it is a legitimate concern - a serious prospective Buyer will either:
View the car in person
Have a qualified person view the car in person
Ask you for specific additional images and/or videos.
Everyone has an opinion .....
Brad, PM sent last night.
There are very few brass era Model Ts that don't have a few incorrect parts here and there. That is simply the nature of a car that was built over 100 years ago.
I think this is a great car at a very reasonable price. It will provide the next owner with a very affordable and proper entry into the world of brass car touring.
I would advertise it on the Horseless Carriage Club of America site www.hcca.org and/or www.prewarcar.com You'll find a buyer on one of those sites. People on those sites understand brass era cars and buy cars to enjoy on tours-which is where they belong. Many people on this site just enjoy picking apart someone else's car and making comments that are inappropriate and often incorrect. Lots of behind-the-computer-screen experts here that really lack practical knowledge about early cars.
I too don't think your price asked for this car is out of line at all. I have to chuckle when I hear someone harping about cheap incorrect screws and nuts that take less time to replace than they do to discuss.
I agree, it is a nice car and for the price not bad at all. Buy it and enjoy it all you can!
Very nice car at a reasonable price. I'm surprised it has not found a new home yet.
If PM not working, you can call me at 443-878-0169. Thanks.
I am stopping in Topeka, Kansas for the day.
I have a 1925 Roadster Pick Up on my trailer now headed to Indiana - then I go to Ohio to pick up another Model T & down to Florida to drop it off - I have room for this in my trailer along this route if someone buys this ....
A couple comments; hope I don't start a fight. I appreciate Mr. Lyons information about the 13 Model T. I am a member of this club and read this forum because it provides accurate info and feedback to our members. We need that and this hobby needs that. His info has helped me understand our Model Ts and be a better restorer and owner of my cars. I also appreciate Mr. Rankin's comments about his car, and I want you to know your car has kept me awake because I am looking for a 13-14 brass car. I still wont sleep well tonight. Finally, I also appreciate Mr. McWillie's comment because we need to have a balance of perspectives on this forum to keep us all thinking. Thanks to all you guys for your input.
The “experts” have had their say.....who really knows what the history is???
Well said Rick D. This hobby should, just as all people should, keep trying to improve itself, become better, more correct, proper and so forth, while at the same time welcoming to others (cars or people) less fortunate, and encouraging them to also make the most of what they have and enjoy it! I think all too often that some of us (sometimes even me) get a little too caught up in some details. On the other hand, we can all benefit from learning more about the whats and whens of which parts are correct for a given time-frame of production. This looks like a car that I would like to see discussed at length with many more pictures. From what I can see from the pictures on the link posted above, it is a wonderful car that can be enjoyed basically as is for years to come (of course, all model Ts do require repairs and tinkering). The price asked seems very reasonable to me. I wish I could afford to be interested in a purchase, but I cannot. I even like the color.
Brad R should not feel any need to apologize for that car in any way. To my way of thinking, this is a perfect model T for T club or HCCA or just personal use. Nice enough to look good anywhere, look great going down the road, and parked next to the best cars that show up on almost any tour! And it is just rough enough to be comfortable in and enjoy without worrying about a new scratch.
I like it!
I sincerely appreciate James L. comments. Expert opinions are the reason I visit this site. I am knowledgeable about '33 & '34 Fords but not Model T's. I would like to add a T to my small collection one day, but not just any T. Brad R. has a nice car, but the restorer obviously didn't do his homework when he painted it with the wrong color. It made a novice like me wonder what else could possibly be wrong. I wish Brad R. the best of luck with his sale and he finds a buyer that will take this car to the next level, or just appreciate it for what is.
I'm like Wayne...wish I could afford another one. I especially love '12s and '13s. I have two '12s now, plus my beloved '13 touring, am "refreshing" the latest '12 acquisition and having a ball doing it. I would love to do the same with this '13, but again like Wayne..no $$!!
Such is life I guess!
Hang in there Brad, it'll go. For whatever reason you're selling it, it's sort of a shame you're letting it go. Cause once it's gone...it's getting harder and harder to find decent brass cars at a good price. I do believe the overall value of them is starting to slowly climb, and if they're in any kind of shape at all will command a healthy price.
You're welcome. You can also PM Larry Smith for an evaluation. Good luck in your search.
A reminder on the PM system.
When you send a PM to another form member it arrives in the form of an email.
If you hit reply and reply directly to the email -it goes back to the forum administrator not to the person who sent you the PM.
To the OP:
I’ve been contacted by two people regarding your car who want to talk to you and both have given their phone number on this thread or sent you their phone number in a PM - please call then if you have not already done so.
Doug Murphy, Colors for horseless carriages is a tough topic. Most restored non-Ford horseless carriages are not painted the proper factory colors. In my opinion, way too many of them are painted colors and styles that are not even era correct. At this point in time, the proper colors for brass era Ts is well enough known. However, that was not always the case. Until a few years ago, it was believed by many in the hobby that red was correct for all 1909 and even most 1910 Fords. Red was even thought to be okay for '12s and '13s. Many people, just because they liked it, painted other brass (like '15s) and even black era Ts red. Green was another color often used, it was common on many brass era cars, and (a somewhat darker version) is the the correct color for many brass era Ts, most especially half of 1909 and most 1910.
To muddy up the works even more. There is a fair amount of evidence that at least a few 1913 Fords left the factory in something other than blue or black. I know of one restored 1913 painted red, which I know the fellow that restored it (decades ago) as well as a few other people that know the car well enough inside and out that swear it was red originally. I have personally seen behind the curtain (under loose upholstery etc) of at least two very original '13 Ts that appeared to have been green since new. I have heard of at least a half dozen others over the years.
Regardless, whether those handful of cars actually left the factory in red or green? More cars were repainted when they were nearly new than most of us realize. Maybe those few cars I knew about were early repaints? Maybe factory? Either way, that also can be considered era correct.
What different people want or need? Varies from person to person. If I were able to be looking to buy something? This car looks good to me from what I can see in the pictures I have seen. As with any antique car, I would recommend looking it over closely, and preferably with a knowledgeable friend that knows what parts are correct or not. Consider any car as its whole, the good and the not so good. Does it meet your needs and/or desires for an antique car? And is the price reasonable for what the car is?
I can't tell from the pictures I have seen whether this car is an assemblage of parts? Or a mostly original car with a few pieces that have been changed? Two front fenders with a minor change between them could have even left the factory that way. Or one could have been replaced a few years later. The engine and the body most likely were not originally on the same car, but that is not unusual, nor is it far enough off to be a serious problem for almost any club or activity.
I like the car. As I said before, I even like the color.
So lets just to add fuel to the fire, suppose the assembly line ran out of acorn nuts on the day that car was produced, did they stop the line and wait for a shipment of nuts? Can you imagine Henry stopping the Assembly line for a few nuts. Do you really think he cared if there were square or acorn nuts installed? Don't think so, I would rather guess they sent a runner down to the local hardware store and got some nuts, anything that had the right thread. As far a the fenders are concerned an early accident, possibly assembled that way at the factory. I don't care how much of an expert you think you are, what happened over 100 years ago, was well ahead of your knowledge base. None of us really know what went on in those days 'cause we wern't there!!. As for as the motor number, not worth the effort to bother except to say I imagine there is a bunch of model t's with updated motors, this one is in the neighborhood.
It's a damn shame some self styled expert starts picking a car apart from a photo. In a sense the expert is shamming the car for sale. That is really sad to bad mouth a car on a public forum such as this and potentially run off a buyer.
If you are the so called expert be a real gentleman, and why not send the seller a pm and suggest your concerns. If the expert is trying to puff his chest out and let everyone know he is the so called expert, its only his opinion and its worth exactly what you paid for it ZERO!!!!
I think we all know the only REAL expert here is Kim Dobbins, because he has educated himself on the early t's. He has spent the time to be called an expert. You can take his word to the bank. I might also add unless he's asked directly I have never seen him sham someones car for sale the sign of a true gentleman.
brass car guy, well said!
I appreciate the interest in my car, even the constructive criticism. Circumstances have changed, and I have decided not to sale the car.
Thank you Brass Car Guy. You put this exactly where it needed to be. Doug has certainly handled this better than most of us. All he wants is to sell the car. Too many jumping in with no positive interest. I really like the suggestion of sending a private PM about any critical suggestion. Good luck with the sale Doug
Good for you Brad, on down the road you'll be glad
you did. It's a nice car, Robert.
Brad, I'm glad to hear you've decided to keep your car.
Although he may have retired, one of the true greats, Gail Rodda, worked in Abilene. His son Kenny may still run their business.
What is the casting date on the block? The upholstery isn't original, but is a very nice job. If you ever decide to correct some of the issues, you will have a very fine car, because it already is. If it is as late a model as it appears, it is likely it came with a metal coilbox.
Great to read that you will be able to retain your car.
Walk and ride tall, be proud of your lovely car, many would love to be able too so.
The Brass Car Guy was 100 o/o right. Unfortunately some obviously did not read his post. Shame really.Happy motoring.