Channel Green Formula per PPG Prophet Analyzer

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Channel Green Formula per PPG Prophet Analyzer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Friday, January 03, 2014 - 01:03 am:

Brent Mize requested this formula, but here it is for any interested member.Channel Green Formula


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Friday, January 03, 2014 - 04:01 pm:

Most should be able to read this without enlargement, however if the print is too small, use your zoom feature to 150%.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Friday, January 03, 2014 - 10:40 pm:

A new twist to this paint formula has been brought to my attention by another Forum poster who either works for PPG or has intimate knowledge of their Prophet system. Unlike what I was led to believe by the dealer, he claims that a computer cannot analyze a paint color and spit out a formula for it; instead the computer just compares and matches the paint sample to be analyzed to known PPG paint colors and selects the best match. If this is the case, I'm sure the formula PPG provided me has a proper name (i.e. Sea Foam Green, Hillcrest Green, etc.). Why would PPG call it 'Dark Gray Green' (a generic name) and not by its proper name. Also, it would be interesting to see if such an existing color formula has a proper name and what that name is. I'll leave the issue up to you to decide. Take the formula PPG gave me for what its worth to you, but all I can say is that when a drop is painted on the area that was analyzed that it was as close a match as I could have hoped for and the paint was used to touch up another Channel Green car with great success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 12:15 am:

If you want to learn more about PPG's Prophet System, search PPG Prophet System. The website states the Prophet spectrophotometer makes a rapid colour selection from PRIMES, VARIANTS, AND SPECIALS. Now, I'm not an artist, nor have I ever studied or dabbled in art, but primes (to me) mean 'primary colors'. Variants (to me) mean 'tints'. Specials are an unknown term (to me), similar to variants. No where in the description does PPG come right out and say that the system just selects a known color and formula and prints it out with a new color name and expects you to believe the existing color is a special mixture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 12:27 am:

How can Home Depot exactly match a color and PPG can not?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 12:44 am:

I don't know, but they did a 'bang up' job for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 01:23 am:

Terry, your forum poster is right. the color is compared to a known one.

The computer does not analyse the color and make up a formula it compares it to a known color which when you think about it there is no point in making up something that exists. That being said there are few colors that have not been mixed and used. There has to be a distinct difference in a color for you eye to see it so the computer can usually find a color so close its as good as correct.

Take British Racing Green, one company may be using it as their color, other companies who use the same color may be told by the paint company its cedar green to save any problems with the first company. From memory BRG has 7 other names. Your dark Grey Green would have been used by numerous car makers over the years as well as fleet owners and it probably has had 20-30 names.

There is an internationally used paint color book (actually a couple dealing with different colors such as straight or metallic or special or fleet colors) each one is broken up into individual colors ( all the greens etc) there is only a few pages of each. the color chips are about an 1" square. with a hole in the middle so you can cover your color and choice the correct one.

You then compare it to a booklet which tells you its name its code and the companys who have used it over the years. Each one of those colors has a long list showing that all the colors are used by numerous companies over lots of years.

One problem that does exist and came up on the 2013 forum is that often when you go to get a color mixed up you will be told they don't have a formula.

The paints used on Automobiles are constantly being improved, often requiring a completely new set of materials and pigments to be used. As your old color name would be one of several and is rarely asked for now the paint company may decide to skip using that name or making a new formula for it as there would be little or no demand.

This happened to me the paint brand I used on one of my cars became unavailable as the company was taken over by another and their system removed. To get more paint for it I had to get a computer scan and a new formula. As I had explained my problem the guy who read the color gave it to me printed out with the name Kamper Green.

Your green appears to be correct, so how do we decide it is? If enough people agreed there should be a way to keep it available for everyone who in the future needs it. One answer would be to have it recorded in the Vintage Ford and at the museum. BUT you can bet there will be those who will demand they have the correct color and you are wrong. Anyone have any idea as to how this green color can be made the official one. whatever its called??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 01:42 am:

Ted, You and Terry posted while I was writing the above. I would suspect Home Depot would be matching house colors more than automotive ones ??

Color mixing systems for automotive paints need to be able to measure minute amounts of a tinter in large quantities to get the correct color the tinters used are far more, up to 60 different ones the normal tint systems used in a Home Depot type stores are crude compared to those in use for cars but the color is usually close enough for use.

Even though one has the equipment to mix a color doesn't mean you get what you wanted. Most auto shops have their own mixing system. (well they do here in Australia) What we found was that a shop when asked to mix a color would usually give it to a kid to do. He pours in the colors, goes over the mark, do you think he is going to throw out the mix? no he continues on, by the time he gets it done the color is way off. If you query it he will swear he did it exactly as required. As the painter has to deal with the color its best if he mixes it himself so he at least knows what he has and he can then alter it as he has the tinters at hand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 04:41 am:

From the 2013 Forum thread.
By Skip Anderson
Original Name - Channel Green 
Modern Name - Kewanee Green 
Ditzler No. - IM 546

Here is the Kewanee Green sample from the " Antique Ford Repaint Manual " ( Model A Ford colours.

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 10:35 am:

From PPG's website.....

Specifically, a Prophet II Flyer dated November 2002, which explains the three easy steps involved in using the system.

In the flyer it clearly states that after scanning the target the "system then automatically selects the most accurate match from a comprehensive database of more than 400,000 of the latest formulas and variances."

Further, the system also makes an assessment and scores how close the color found in the database matches or not the target. The lower the score the higher the match.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 11:10 am:

this info dated 1970 perhaps by Herman Smith Archivist Ford Canada.
Also link to a beautiful restoration using this colour
http://www.hotrodscustomstuff.com/OLD_SITE/mercury-woodie-01.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 11:13 am:

image too big and I don't remember how to resize

Brent. Can you help me out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 12:10 pm:

1952 Hillcrest Green. (Just helping with the post...no personal view as to correctness)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 12:59 pm:

Well, Tim, You are probably correct, however, the information that I posted came, word for word, from PPG's website; so we must be looking at two different places on their website.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 02:15 pm:

Terry:

For me it's not about being right or wrong. Rather my focus is on how technology can aid us in our pursuit of restoring cars....but at the same time understand and appreciate its limitations.

No doubt, with more than 400,000 colors in its database, PPG's system can in certain instances find the formula for a perfect match to the target. In other instances it will be necessary to adjust the formula by eye and experience to arrive at the perfect natch.

Timothy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 02:20 pm:

George just sent you an email of what I was trying to post


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 03:58 pm:



finally


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 05:04 pm:

The above statements describing the Prophet system as a color "selector" rather than a device that formulates are correct.

In some instances it will get very close and in others not at all. Despite what sounds like an impressive rainbow of colors, a large percentage of those 400,000 colors will be silvers, whites, and blacks in metallic, as that is what you principally see on modern cars, and there are A LOT more variations of those basic colors than one would think.

I have never had a Prophet selection come out as an exact match. This is not to say the green that is the subject of discussion here is not usably correct. My point is the only "exact" matches (and the definition of "exact" is a whole other topic of discussion) I've ever had have been finish tinted by eye. Surface finish, refraction of light, glossiness, etc. can all wreak havoc with the result you get from a Prophet.

The simple explanation for both standardization of names and final product with respect to color match is simply this: it is still an art no matter how much technology you apply. The paint color market is a challenging one that comes with all the idiosyncrasies and temperaments often attributed to those of an artists mentality and, as a result, that, coupled with an exponential amount of variables and the limitations of technology, there will likely never be a button you can push that will give you a solid "one size fits all" answer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 08:57 pm:

I will admit that I was misled by the comments from my PPG paint dealer about the workings of the Prophet System, however, I still question why the Prophet System would choose a known formula for a common PPG color and not tag it with its current correct name, instead of making up a generic name (in this case "Dark Gray Green") and tagging it with a different name to lead a customer to think he was getting a custom formula. At any rate, this formula was a close enough match to do touch up repair with, and Hillcrest Green looks waaaaaay too dark. I would never consider using that dark a green, unless I was trying to match "Commercial Green" or some other dark green Ford color, like Highland Green. Kawanee Green or the color that UK member Mr. Barker has on his coupe looks to be a closer match.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, January 04, 2014 - 10:12 pm:

Frankly, most of the people at a PPG store don't understand the inner workings of their Prophet system.

Names mean little with respect to color and it's possible "Dark Gray Green" is an established manufacturers name for that particular color. Not everything has a fancy adjective riddled name. It could be for a commercial application, or it could be a component color. Additionally, early colors don't seem to be in the Prophet system because whenever I run into that sort of thing, they use the Prophet to get close (a modern equivalent) but they don't have a ready translation to mix what is quite often a Ditzlac or Duracryl code. The chemistry today is entirely different from back then and it's not in their interest to refigure all the formulas for something that's not in high demand. The use of color in the collector car market probably accounts for a fraction of a percent of their sales.

In the end, regardless of name, translation, or source, all that matters is what suits you as compared to you original sample. Find a store that has a man on staff who can color match by eye and you'll be set for anything you want.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By BRENT MIZE on Sunday, January 05, 2014 - 06:01 pm:

I really appreciate all of the responses to my question. From what I have seen of the 15 millionth T, I believe that the Hillcrest Green is a close match to that car. My T was made very close to that car, being only 524 cars later. My wife and I have decided on the Hillcrest. Thank you all again for you help!


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