Hello all, its been a while since I've been on.
Happy new year and such.
I was wondering if there is any information or if there have been any studies on the amount of energy used in the production of Model T's and their in house components. I was out and about the other day and a very opinionated eco nut decided to give me a hard time about the wooden stirring sticks I had taken and was fiddling with at the local coffee shop. now don't get me wrong, I think its important to maintain our planet, but some people have this holier than thou mind set because their hybrid is just so "Clean" and it makes them better people for driving one. I was about to make a comment on how the real travesty is the elephant hide interior original to our Packard (long since replaced), but decided it wasn't worth the hassle. it did get me wondering what the environmental impact of the construction of one model T was as originally made, be it power in watts, coal consumption or whatever else and see how it compares to a modern car. If I'm not mistaken the tooling in the T plant was run by a couple large steam engines. would anybody know where I could get fuel consumption data on them?
Has this sort of thing been done before?
Well - for one thing - the survivors have saved the planet a lot for all the ressources NOT used to produce the NOT needed replacement cars over a 90 - 100 years period.
Jay Leno wrote a thing about that, concerning his Model T, a couple of years ago. It was in response to the do-gooders criticizing his driving old cars that weren't environmentally friendly. If I remember right it addressed also all the fuel transporting the "replacement" cars from overseas. Probably more of a good read than firm facts!
I would say that a Model T is near 100% recyclable, How about you electric car?
Perhaps over the years some studies done on total power consumption. But finding would be hard.
Easy enough to get the data on the Power Plant at Ford, according to Ford Industries, 1926, the building housed eight turbo-generators, with a total capacity of 60,000 horsepower. The largest steam turbo-generator plant in America at the time. The high efficiency gas-steam engines in combination with the factory heating system keep down the total coal comsumption to 30 tons per hour.
Waste heat was used from the gas-steam turbo engines to heat the plant, and six pumps, each 3 million gallons of water daily furnished the water supply, and two pumps, 25 million gallons capacity recirulated the water to large spray ponds on the roof where the water was cooled and used again and again.
Ford was a leader in conservation of materials and energy, and at eight other branch factories, St. Paul, and Green Island, being the largest, used water power to drive the turbines instead of coal. At these locations, the flowing river waters were free power source going to waste before Henry developed these plants.
The problem with these Prius pricks is that they become more miserable each day as they drive their cramped little cars below the posted limit and soon learn to regret their decision as they watch you cruise by in stately dignity in your large, comfortable car or fun classic heading to nowhere special. It becomes their mission to force you to share their misery by conning you into buying a similar car or worse yet, riding the bus. Responding to these types is often losing battle as you are merely a target for their venomous hatred.
I just run them over in my big gas guzzeling truck!
I heard that Prius drivers are the worst drivers on the road....... because they're always using one hand to pat themselves on the back as they drive....
I love Prius owners, the gas they save leaves more for me to burn in the 440 of my 1971 Plymouth GTX!
Not sure I could find it again, but I saw a study a couple of years ago that tried to calculate the total energy cost per mile for a whole bunch of vehicles, including manufacturing and disposal costs. A Prius wasn't much better than a Hummer. I don't know if it is still the case, but nickel for Prius batteries was mined in Canada in pretty environmentally crappy conditions, shipped to China for processing, shipped to Japan to be built into the cars, then the cars were shipped to the US. They burned more fuel before they left the showroom then they would ever save.
A friend of mine recently encountered at a pub a member of The Anointed Intelligentsia who went off on a very predictable environmentally moral tangent about how she is doing everything right and him everything wrong.
The discussion turned to the electric or hybrid car she was driving. In the course of the discussion while talking about waste and disposal it occurred to my friend to ask, "Just how big do you think the battery is in your electric / hybrid car?", to which she answered, "I don't know -- about the size of one you'd find in a cordless drill?".
Hence, arguments with these types truly is a waste of good human energy that can be put to better use working on a Model T. They simply don't have enough gray matter between their ears to support their own arguments, or enough to comprehend yours.
Environmental impact of Model T production? Cost can never be determined as it is still with us. Don't get me wrong on blaming just Ford. It was common practice in the day just to dump waste where ever was convenient. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/deq-rrd-BULLETIN-KingsfordBulletin-06-2004 _250198_7.pdf
is this the paper you are referring to ?
The study that that article points to is what I was remembering. I see now that it is quite controversial and no longer seems to be available on the web site, so maybe it was a bit overstated.
My personal opinion is that some hybrids work well and make sense. Prius isn't one of them. Always wished I had enough money to throw away to do this experiment: Take a Prius and keep all the aero stuff, low rolling resistance tires, etc. Throw out the gas engine and all the hybrid stuff. Put in a 3 or 4 cylinder clean turbodiesel just big enough to match the Prius performance. I bet you could beat Prius mileage and range without too much trouble.
I hate this stuff. Not a complaint from me about it being here. I just get very passionate about it and I have been fighting this kind of stupidity most of my life. (It cost me a lot in that "drug-driven hippie high school" I was forced to go to in the '60s.)
A few decades ago, a windmill farm was built near where I lived in Livermore CA. Me? I got curious. So I started asking around until I found a few "connections" and engineers willing to help figure it out.
So. "In terms of energy alone. How long does it take the average wind electric generator to produce as much power as it took to mine the ores, process the materials, manufacture, transport, install, connect and maintain said generator."
Answer; 25 to 29 years. Life expectancy of said generator? 15 to 18 years. The answers are based upon the best information available provided by wind-power companies at the time. Can you say "biased"? Can you say "OOPS"?
Frankly. I am sick of fighting the stupid world. It is all about two things. Power through politics, or power through money. Intelligence and honest hard work are not appreciated. Nor are they usually rewarded in any significant way.
Mankind could have "Heaven on Earth" almost anytime he is ready for it. I said in high school that it would not happen in my lifetime because of the stupidity of politics. I may have a few more years for "them" to prove me wrong on that.
Back to "On Topic". Model T people are the best. And they are many of the smartest people I have ever met. That is part of why I really like this place (this forum and the clubs and people that make it what it is).
Thank you Chris! Thank you all!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Let's boil this down to the lowly light bulb. Now-illegal incandescent bulb: raw materials: sand for the glass, small quantity of wire for the filament, some aluminum & brass for the base. Relatively low-tech manufacturing methods.
CFL? More glass than in a regular bulb, ceramic castings to form the base and holder for the transformer, which requires iron core, wire windings for the transformer, then the materials for the gasses inside the bulb--including mercury. Complex manufacturing processes--multiples to make all the parts. Manufacturing costs, energy used and raw materials required--far exceed the costs to make the "extra" electricity the incandescent bulb requires.
More non-science bringing us a "better world"
Sorry, this really bugs me!
Wait 'till the terrorists unleash an electromagnetic pulse to kill all our computers, and then we can still drive our Ts!! We're futurists!!!
Ford, like the packing house, used everything but the squeal. Here is an excerpt from the 10 Millionth Ford Booklet:
Ten Millionth Ford Excerpt.pdf (94.9 k)
The Henry Ford has at least one of the original hybrid steam / internal combustion engines from the Highland Park plant. The website, https://www.thehenryford.org/museum/america.aspx, says that the plant had nine of these by 1919.
I would expect that the museum would be able to provide you with some information on the specifics of fueling these monsters. And I do mean monsters... if you've never seen them in person you are missing out.
Having looked at the Gas Steam Engine at The Henry Ford,i fail to see where the use of the word [turbo] is applied?? The Gas Steam engines were twin cyl Recipators that would run one side gas or the other on steam whichever was cheapest at the time! Bud in Wheeler.
Kenneth, I'm not seeing anyone use the term "turbo"... according to the Museum the generators ran on internal combustion and scavenged waste heat from those to generate steam power.
At least, not using the word "turbo" in the modern sense. I believe the term they should be using is "turbine"
Hey Wane,Thank you for helping me spell the word biased. If your info was a few decades ago,could it now be facts or biased?? My opp is biased because next week another payment should come! Have a nice day! Bud in Wheeler.
Zachary,My use of [turbo] come's only from Dans post,and yes i don not know why the word [turbine] would fit the Big twin Cyl Recipricatoring engines?? Another thing i do not know is could they run both sides if demand was high? Bud in Wheeler.
Bud, my understanding of the machinery on display at The Henry Ford is that it ran full-time as an internal combustion generator. The waste heat from this engine was directed into a steam turbine, which also generated electricity full-time. So, it wasn't a choice of "either-or"; it was both.
Here is a website with more information on the hybrid engine, wait for the page to load fully before scrolling around it:
You have a '71 GTX with a 440?!?
Yep, thanks, it gets 9 mpg around town and 12 on the highway.
Alexander - I like to inform them that My wife still uses a solar powered clothes dryer and that the resultant energy savings out weigh any savings they "MIGHT" obtain by driving their hybrid. They usually look at me funny and say there is no such thing as a solar powered clothes dryer to which I reply they have been around for years there are the long rectangular ones and the square ones and even the ones streched across the street between two apartment buildings, then I explain their Grand mothers didn't have an energy gobbling electric or gas clothes dryer that usually shuts them up for at least long enough for me to finish my coffee!
Oh Sh*#, Was that a dog I just ran over with my Cummins Diesel, No it was vw rabbit! The thud was not enough to be a dog.GR,still using my grandmother's solar powered clothes dryer. Still works like brand new. I did have to string a new line on it a few times
The wife and I were slowly tooling around our most favorite low-pressure/low drag get-away place at Christmastime (Maryland Eastern Shore)...when a car came up on my tail and honked. Double yellow line, so wasn't sure what they wanted...but they honked again so I pulled over slightly but didn't stop!
They then passed and the wife and I found ourselves being passed by a Prius! We just looked at one another and broke out in mutual giggles The absurdity of it all...a place that bills itself as being slower than slow and as carefree as possible...and I'm sure that Prius was wheezing hard with its' Type A personality driver in his big hurry!
Mark,A old friend of mine still has the 1968 GTX-440 he bought new.Very fast!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bud in Wheeler.
i love how my model T is made from all recycled parts i scavenged from rubbish heaps & wood that i can grow & saw myself, Seats made from cotton and stuffed with coconut fibers & horsehair & hemp backing that are all grown locally, i imagine even wood wheels could be made from a suitable local timber. Yup, My model T is like looking at the future of green motoring. Might be an incentive in that to replant the lost areas of rain forests with plenty of rubber trees to make tires again.
I forgot to add my thank's to Mark for adding the link to explain the engine!Very thoughtful and good to know the facts! Bud in Wheeler.
Does anybody have a link to Jay Leno's write-up about the Model T? Sounds like a very interesting read, and something to have in my arsenal whenever someone wants to debate the merits of restoring cars vs. buying shiny new ones.
Here you go.
Jared,If your going to debate the merits of the Model T,you might want to read Mr Leno's site several times before using all the facts found there. Bud in Wheeler.
You guys ought to ask Royce what he has in HIS garage????
I'm there with you guys... something like that in mine too.
Love you guys OTHER car!
I guess you all can call me one of the original recyclers. LOL I never had the $$$ to go out and buy the GOOD stuff. But I made it good stuff the hard way. Did I make money doing it? NOPE! But I met a lot of neat people and had fun. I am basically not an out going person. I would like to be but don't know how (usually) and my cars were the ones that brought me many friends and neat people to meet. If I had NOT had them I would have NOT met so many people. Now I am talking about years ago when I had cars running and driving. Not the last 25 years. I had to build other stuff first. I had to retire also. I had to keep my cars on a back burner for 25 years! Job 1100 miles away from my home, 8 storages for my cars and parts. Yeah I made good money! But other things come first. I hope some of you understand this.
Neat Plymouth!! Mark.
Joe in Mo.