Friction shocks vs panhard/j-bars

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Friction shocks vs panhard/j-bars
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 12:06 pm:

hello everyone, quick question for those with experience with these two speedster accessories. My first question is which one is better and why you think that. They seem to perform the same task to me. It also seems to me that if the nut slips on the friction shock in the middle of a turn you could be in for a rude awaking while the panhard/j-bars seem to be pretty indestructible depending on which design you use.

If i am completely off base, feel free to call me to the carpet but please explain how they perform two separate tasks. To me it looks like they both just limit body roll.

If you dont know what we are talking about here is a couple links with pictures explaining the two

Friction shocks...

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/116698.html?1260481200

J-Bars

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/228030.html?1312813811


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 01:16 pm:

Nathan,

They do two different things.

In a nutshell, the shocks dampen motion up & down, while the Panhard bar limits motion side-to-side.

So, while one is not better than the other, if I had to chose which one I would most want it would be the friction shocks. That's just from my personal perspective.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 01:21 pm:

Also, the nut on a friction shock puts pressure on a spring, (usually seen as a five legged piece that sits just under the nut). The pressure on the spring is what governs the amount of friction on the joint. The nut will not slip and suddenly relieve all pressure/friction. If anything, it might just back off a bit and loosen the shock joint up just a bit. The nut is usually locked by some means anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 01:43 pm:

Hi: From a old hot rodder. In our Ts a panhard bar is probley not needed. It is to control the side movement of the spring shackles or coil springs of a hot rod or other cars, depending on application. . We are probly not going to corner fast enough for "shackle drift" to be much of an issue. On hot rods that are driven fast and cornered hard they are good to have . On rear coil spring cars they are a neccissity. On a T speedster I do not see much gain in performance as the shackles sitting at aprox 45 degrees tends to do the same thing in a limited form. If for looks only, they will not hurt a thing with a very limited gain possible. Friction shocks would be a gain. They are to limit the re-bound of the springs and dampen the road shocks. They will also help a small amount on body roll. Tube shocks would help more on body roll but do not look as correct on our Ts. Though they do look good on old traditional hot rods. I see Friction shocks as a help and they look cool on a speedster. You could use both. Most old style hot rods use both. Check out Speedway Motors for the shocks and also the panhard rods as well as Watts Links (fancy panhard rod) They have been in business for the hot rodders since the 50s Good people ... check them out


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison (Vancouver Washington) on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 02:42 pm:

I actually have both on my car....front and rear.

I didn't care much for the amount of Body Roll on my '26 Rodster..especially after lowering it, so when I did my big re-build in 2012...it got both.

Now the car corners like it is glued to the pavement and is a much stiffer, more stable ride with the shocks.

I think any T would benefit from both to be honest...especially a stock height car as the body roll would be more. I have driven a few T's that felt as if they would roll going into a corner....even a shallow one. just my $.02

Here is how I did mine...








Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 03:20 pm:

clayton, i noticed that yours dont look like the older ones. did you make yours? do you mind walking me through what materials you used and such?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison (Vancouver Washington) on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 03:35 pm:

Nathan,

Yes, a friend and I had one (seen here in the right, rear corner of the car) that originally came from a 1914 Hupmobile Model 32. It was originally mounted to the center of the frame and to the center of the rear axle diff. We liked the simple, plate steel construction and set about reproducing 3 more out of similar plate (1/4" plate if memory serves). The friction material originally used was a cloth-impregnated rubber....so we used some old conveyer belt stock from a sand and gravel company (it was 1/4" or 3/8" thick).

I used the original as my pattern, traced them out on the new piece of plate, cut them out with a plasma cutter, drilled and cleaned them up then assembled and painted them.

Super easy to make. I have some blow-apart diagrams for them I can scan and post too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 04:09 pm:

that would be great! also,, can you include approximately how many ft/lbs are on the nuts/bolts? do you have anything to hold the nut/bolt to prevent them from spinning? your design looks bulletproof.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison (Vancouver Washington) on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 04:25 pm:

Nathan,

I used Locking Swedge nuts on my shocks, that way they are always tight and infinitely adjustable.

I'm not sure how many ft/lbs are on them now....but it will change depending on how stiff or loose you want it to ride.

I think mine are just slightly snug...for a softer ride.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 05:01 pm:

Bonus, I want to make some too. Just have to add some sexy brass accents to mine!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 05:25 pm:

My 09 could do with panhard rods, back end sways like mad in bumpy turns. I've had them on Ford Populars and they transform the handling totally. My brother had an Austin 7 racer where the friction shock also acted as a panhard rod: the centre bit with bolt was firmly bolted to the chassis and the arm direct to the axle. Obviously the opposite side had a link on the arm otherwise they'd be fighting each other.

My mate didn't understand the principle and put a panhard rod on his Thames van with it bolted to the spring end of the shackle - boy, that handled badly!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 08:59 pm:

Here is a pic of shocks like Donnie mentioned on one of my speedsters that aren't "period correct", but, I chose function over correctness. I've not experienced any excessive body roll and I've ran it hard around the track at Winchester during the 2008 Centennial and to the point of sliding around curves on dirt roads, in addition to driving at normal highway speeds. No pic of the rear, but, similar shock setup. I think the lowering of the car makes my setup work hand in hand with the shocks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison (Vancouver Washington) on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 12:00 pm:

As promised, I dug out my blow-apart drawing of my friction shocks to post...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 12:49 pm:

this looks great! what kind of bushings material did you use up top? Also, can you give me overall length of the longest arm and the diameter of the friction material used? These obviously can be approximate. no need to busting out the tape measure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison (Vancouver Washington) on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 02:00 pm:

Nathan,

Those aren't bushings, they are steel spacers to keep the arms from pinching together when the bolt was tightened and the other was for clearance between the shock and the frame. This was my original design....

I improved the upper mounts:





Between the shock arms and the center steel mounting block seen here, I used Teflon washers, but Oil-lite Bronze could be used as well.


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