OT - Ford models that we've never seen.......

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - Ford models that we've never seen.......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 11:47 pm:

We've seen different magazine descriptions a "Doctor's coupe" and an air cooled four cylinder touring car shown by FMC at different car shows in early 1904.

Below is another description of these cars helps fill in the blanks. The most intriguing one (to me) is an air cooled, 10 - 16 horsepower (depending on which magazine description one believes) car. The description that appeared in the February 20 issue of "Automobile Review" below tells us a little more (that I haven't seen before). It says the touring car had an 84 inch wheelbase (same as the future models NRS), 12 h.p. air cooled engine, and (this is a first for me) "the four cylinders are
cast together."

I think this may be the same car seen in a New York dealer advertisement a year later called a "Model H". Ford audit papers also reported experimental costs for both Models G and H (so it may have been designated either of those, or not).

Also mentioned is a "Doctor's Coupe", that appears to be an enclosed coupe body on a Model C chassis.



Now if we could only find a photograph (and I bet we will at some point).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, January 09, 2014 - 11:54 pm:

The timing indicates Ford's air cooled car may have been the inspiration for Malcolmson to start his Aerocar adventure..?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 12:01 am:

Here is an earlier thread you posted with pictures and descriptions of the 1904 air cooled Ford prototype: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/391052.html?1380300717


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 02:06 am:

Roger,

I went "hunting" and found another Wanamaker ad including a Model H:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:58 am:

1904 Coupe image courtesy of the Henry Ford:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 07:06 am:

The air cooled car is a early version of the Model "B" that was rejected in favor of the air cooled version. I've not heard that it had four cylinders cast together, but that would be easy if you had no water passages to worry about, so the story is not unlikely, and could be true. The crank case would still be a separate piece. If a collector encountered a motor like that today do you think he would recognize it as a Ford?

There is mention of that car in one of the Automotive Quarterly books by Henry Austin Clark / Beverly Kimes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 07:45 am:

Do you have more info on the photo? If it is the Ford coupe, that's a great find.


The air cooled car is not an early version of the Model B. some suggest the prototype Model B was also air cooled. The air cooled car had very unique specs and dimensions. It was in reality, probably the light touring that Henry Ford always seemed to be searching for.

Also, Ford patented an enclosed driveline prior to this, and so this (the air cooled car) was the first non chain drive Ford and I believe the enclosed rear end, with ball joint was the of runner to the diff used for models B, K, NRS and finally T, with little design change.

Pretty remarkable (all the prototypes and different variations of cars) for a company that sold it's first car less than a year before this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 08:29 am:

Another spot on the Dr's Coupe. I believe from the N.Y. Show,,and specs on the Ford cars. Interestingly, 999 's specs are included.





Close up of specs:




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 10:35 am:

How about a Model A "tourabout?"



OK, just an accessory. Still, a neat idea :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 07:14 pm:

Both cars scheduled at the March 1904 Boston Show:



Below, FMC Model G and H expenses as reported on the 1905 Fiscal Year report. I don't know if these are related to either car, however the Model H shown in Wanamaker advertising (early 1905) correlates with this Model H entry. meanwhile, the Model B is in production at this same time, so the Model H and B are entirely separate models.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:09 am:

Royce,

Are you going to tell us about the Model A with California top, or "Dr.'s Coupe? Where is the pic from, when was it taken, etc.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 07:39 am:

The photo appears in several books Rob. I have no other information about it. You can get a higher resolution image from the Henry Ford, but as far as I know they have no particular info on the image either.

The background is likely the New York Ford agency of John Wanamaker. Very few places (perhaps none) outside New York City had paved streets with curbs and a Ford agency in 1904.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 08:24 am:

Well, actually, there were enough hard surfaced streets in America to justify building Street Sweepers, as the front page of this 1904 magazine shows. This particular street sweeper is seen working in Chicago. A d street sweepers don't work we'll on I paved/surfaced streets (that I'm fairly certain of).

I've learned it's best not to make general statements that I'm unsure about (although I still do).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 02:46 pm:

Funny thing. The automobile gets rid of horses and their related solid waste issues, and then we invent a mechanized street sweeper to replace the "white wings" guy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 08:45 pm:

The Model A Coupe photo is in "The English Model T Ford" with the caption "A period photo showing a Model A Ford with Doctor's Coupe bodywork outside the showrooms of Central Motor Car Co., London." The "117" on the window lends some support to this as their address was 117 Long Acre, London.

Rob - interesting that the specs you posted indicate that the 3 models other than 999 were 8 hp. ie: Model A rather than model AC or C which were 10 hp.

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 09:17 pm:

Andrew,
Yes, I was expecting 10 hp too. I guess I don't know when the switch to the 10 hp engine occurred. If you look it up would you please post it?
Thanks,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 09:24 pm:

The original Doctor's car:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 03:00 am:

Hi Rob. I'm not so sure I can answer that question. We could look at the sales ledgers as an approximation. They don't differentiate between A and AC, but if we take the figure of 670 8 hp A's to be correct, and assume that cars above #670 were 10 hp, that gives us a clue. #671 was sold on the 2nd April 1904.

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 08:32 am:

Andrew,

I'll take a look at April 1904 Ford advertising and see when 10 hp was substituted for 8 hp.

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 09:24 am:

I have a cold lead on an aircooled Ford engine that came out of Harrah's. Interested, Rob?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 10:59 am:

Ralph,

me, and everyone else reading this post!

What do you have Ralph?

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 11:08 am:

Andrew,

This description of a Model A was published with other car descriptions for the upcoming Chicago Auto Show, February 13, 1904. I'm not sure if the "improvements" listed indicate this is what we refer to as a "Model AC", or if it's a transition car. I believe the six sight oiler and clutch/brake improvements were "AC" developments (but don't know for sure, not my area :-)). The engine is supposed to be improved with a "taller" piston, but the bore and stroke appear to be unchanged?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 10:44 am:

Andrew,

This news account dated April 28, 1904 details the new (what we call AC) larger engine Model A.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 10:52 am:

And, announcement of the Model B. This account says Ford is dropping their plans for an air cooled car (above) in favor of a new water cooled car (Model B). It also says the car is "almost entirely" the work of C. H. Wills. The first reported sales of the Model B occur in October 1904, with most sales occurring in calendar year 1905. The 250 cars work will begin on (reported) correspond with Ford Mo. Co. minutes that say Ford ordered 250 chassis initially for the Model B:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 06:04 am:

Hi Rob. Thanks for posting this info. Interesting stuff.

My understanding is that the deficiencies in the 8 hp cars were gradually changed. For example the clutch was improved, the oiler was changed to 6 outlet and the rear end to the exposed type while the cars still had 8 hp motors. I wonder whether Ford held back the 10 hp ACs until they sold all the 8 hp A cars. Anyway April 1904 seems to be the changeover (at the latest).

Playing devil's advocate here - If Ford had abandoned the air cooled model as of August 1904, is it likely the model H advertised by Wannamaker in 1905 was the air cooled car? Note that the July 1905 ad describes the H as a 1905 model. Perhaps that was merely salesmanship - if he had one to unload I'm sure he wouldn't advertise that it was an obsolete model.

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 07:46 am:

Andrew,
Another description of the air cooled car. It seems this was going to be Ford's lightweight four cylinder touring car. A Ford "first" includes the enclosed drive differential. Also, the 84 inch wheelbase and 15-16 hp (depending on the article) coincidentally match the future Model N.


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