Old photo - is it reversed?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Old photo - is it reversed?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:23 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:30 pm:

All I can tell is that it's a 1913.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:36 pm:

Isn't it just a right hand drive car?

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:39 pm:

To me the front tires look like 30" x 3-1/2", which is an indicator of a Canadian, eh? car, which is an indication that is was made as a RHD for export.

I say, no, not reversed.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:46 pm:

Hinges on the front door would mean that's a right-hand door, but a right-hand drive car might be a Canadian, which would mean hinges on both front doors, so no help there.

I copied and enlarged the photo and it's just clear enough to see that the the Ford logo on the front of the radiator reads correctly so the negative wasn't flipped when the print was made. I does seems odd that the carbide generator would be on the right-hand running board, but I suppose it should be on the same side as the steering wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 06:47 pm:

I agree with Keith that the tires front and back are the same. Note I believe you can also make out a oil site guage which shows that it is right hand drive.



Funny the "Ford" scrip on the radiator does not show up well at all -- even when I adjusted the contrast etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Woolf on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 07:01 pm:

Looks like the horn is upside down unless they were mounted that way on the Canadian cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 08:41 pm:

Horns were the same on Canadian and US built cars so the horn looks upside down on LHD Canadian cars. Also the carbide generator is mounted further to the rear than a US built LHD car. The reason is to give the driver adequate room to step out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 08:42 pm:

Meant to say the horn looks upside down on Canadian RHD cars. The car is indeed a Canadian RHD.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 10:11 pm:

Do drivers of RHD cars use the driver's door, or do they get in on the passenger side like we do with LHD US built cars?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 10:13 pm:

Depends how fat they are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Friday, January 10, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

T-model Ford car parked outside Geelong Library at its launch in 1915


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 09:20 pm:

In the City of Vancouver B.C. they drove on the right side of center up to 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 09:38 pm:

Art,

Thank you so much for taking the time to bring the “Ford” script on the radiator top tank out. And more importantly giving the hint “ T-model Ford car parked outside Geelong Library at its launch in 1915.” That hint led to several sites that had the same photo (with the background) and at least one of those had that it was from the State library of Victoria Harold Paynting Collection. Googling that led to the following from the state library: This is also where knowing where the photo was taken can help ID the car. In this case a Canadian RHD 1913 model year car exported to Australia. [As David mentioned above some Canadian locations used RHD cars also. So knowing where the photo was taken helps us know it is a Canadian car.]


Copyright status: This work is out of copyright
Terms of use: No copyright restrictions apply.
Cite as: Cite as: Harold Paynting Collection, State Library of Victoria.
Identifier(s): Accession no(s) H94.150/107
Subjects: Automobiles ; Film negatives
Notes: Possibly copy negative of earlier photograph.
Source/Donor: Gift; Mr Harold Paynting; 1994.
Series/Collection: Harold Paynting collection. Unnumbered.
Link to digitised item: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/213050

And going to the link at: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/213050 led to a download button and a 11 mb TIF down load. Lots of details. We can read the Ford on the rear hub cap by adjusting the light and contrast. Note also the truss rod under the rear axle and what appears to be the bulge at the rear of the splash apron ref:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/140336.html?1273603724



Again adjusting the contrast and mid tones the accessory oil sight gauge is easy to see.



There are other details that are much easier to see in the high resolution copy. There is an extra lever on the steering column, you can see the door latch handles coming up through the top of doors etc. Again thank you so much for the additional effort and leads!

There are other nice high resolution photos available at the library such as the 1914 touring see:
http://digital.slv.vic.gov.au/view/action/nmets.do?DOCCHOICE=147203.xml&dvs=1389476719311~799&locale=en_US&search_terms=&adjacency=&divType=&usePid1=true&usePid2=true

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 10:20 pm:

I believe the RHD cars had the horn mounted upside down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Saturday, January 11, 2014 - 10:55 pm:

Your welcome Hap !
My photo of the “Ford” script was cropped, converted to jpg and compressed
to confirm to the group posting limits from the 11 mb TIF file you refer to.
(I Should have posted the TIF link for you then)

Regards
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Hunter on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 12:15 am:

RHD cars for the Australian market had the horns mounted upside down to keep the wombats out! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 07:36 am:

Hap, your comment about the accessory oil sight gauge being visible meant that it must be a RHD vehicle. Does that mean LHD oil petcocks are on the other side on LHD cars?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 07:52 am:

Fellows, re Hap's note about the bulge in the splash apron. This has been brought up on other posts and has caused quite some comment. To call it a bulge I feel is a bit misleading. It is not a bulge like that on the early cars. The splash panels showing this feature are formed with the folded channel at the bottom into which the running board edge sits. The flat section next to the running board is about 1 1/4" wide for the length of the panel, except at the rear. About 10" from the back edge that flat section tapers to the rear to nothing. This means that that section of the panel above the flat changes direction and flares outwards, showing a distinct kink in the panel at the bottom which again disappears towards the top of the panel.

To make such a panel requires that the panel be pressed. This may be the reason why reproduction panels taper right from the front. They can be folded, no press or dies needed.

Cutting and shutting is needed to make a folded reproduction splash panel resemble a factory pressed item.

Hope this helps. Or is it a Canadian thing???

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 08:42 am:

Allan,

Good question/your question:

"Hap, your comment about the accessory oil sight gauge being visible meant that it must be a RHD vehicle. Does that mean LHD oil petcocks are on the other side on LHD cars?"

No, the Oil petcocks are always on the right side of the oil pan. But in this case that confirmed the photo was NOT reversed and therefore that it really was a RHD car. If the photo had been reversed we would NOT have been able to see that - as it would have been on the opposite side of the oil pan. Of course sometimes the angle, the shadow, just having an accessory oil petcock instead of the much larger oil sight gauge will prevent us from seeing it anyway. But in this case because we could see it, and it was on the right side of the engine we know the photo was not reversed. That also works for the manifolds and exhaust pipe and muffler if you can see those details. Same for the drain plug on the rear axle. On the Model T they are always on the right side of the chassis if the chassis has not been modified. Remember some folks flip the axle over to lower the car -- but Ford originally had them on the right side.

Note I didn't figure that out -- Trent posted it several years ago and "ah ha" now I look for that detail.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Allan,

Ref your comment on the splash shield (and there are comments on what that part is called also see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/405241.html?1386209223 ).

Yes, that same style running board splash apron appears to have been used on the Canadian cars (ref the photo above of a Canadian touring). Whatever word is used both Corey (sand blasted color) and Royce (painted black) posted excellent photos of what that area looks like on the link mentioned above http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/140336.html?1273603724. Those two photos are shown below with Corey's photo first:





Royce used the term "kick" some have used the term "crease" I believe you used the term "kink." I do not think the Ford used a term for that in the Price List of Parts. He may or may not have used a term on the actual drawings.

Did Ford use that style splash apron in Canadian production? I believe Darwin’s book “The History of Ford in Australia” shows several other cars with that feature, but it should be better documented (and it easily could have already been done – but I would also like to capture it better for future use).

I think a better question would be is did Ford also use the smooth or non-kinked/non-kicked/non-creased style during the same earlier period 1913-1917ish as Rootlieb has been reported to say (I have not verified that)? Or was that smooth running board splash apron without a crease style not introduced until 1918ish or so as the period photos support? There are still so many things to better document. And in this case to possibly even request Rootlieb to consider producing the style shown above with that kink/kick/crease etc..

Great questions – for a great car that not only changed the world – but still brings a lot of fun to so many of us today.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 09:42 am:

That area is hard to photograph in a way that shows the difference. You can find old original photos that don't show it. It is because the difference can only be seen easily from certain camera perspectives.

You only find things that you search for if you look for them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 10:06 am:

Royce,

I agree, just because it doesn't show up in a photo doesn't mean it is not there. But if we have a clear photo at the correct angle with good lighting that does not show the feature -- then it would be a great data point (although it could also just be a later part or even a reproduction part). Additionally original cars may also provide clues or leads.

I'm really hoping we can get some documentation from the Benson Ford Archives on when that change was introduced and approximately how much overlap there may have been when both styles could have been used.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 04:43 pm:

Hap, I may be from down under where you guys think our cars run up side down but you can't fool me!!!
If a photo/negative is reversed, we don't see the opposite side of the car, so the oil sight gauge would not disappear. The photo would show the same details but the car would be facing the opposite direction. What you are saying is that if the photo of the 14 T with the three cars stacked on end was reversed, we could see the upended cars in the foreground. Nice try, but I like to think I am just a little bit more savvy.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, January 12, 2014 - 08:43 pm:

Allan,

I could easily be missing something – that happens sometimes. It has been a good but long day. I may also be expressing my idea poorly (that has happened before and will most likely happen again). Or I may just be wrong (that has happened before and will also happen again).

I should probably quit for the night while I'm behind. But try to humor me for one more time as I try to explain what I meant. All the car photos are from page 36 of the Jan – Feb 1988 “Vintage Ford” and the chassis photo was cropped and I don’t remember which location it came from at the moment. I believe it would have been published originally in the “Ford Methods and Ford Shops”.

Below is a 1913 touring cropped so we cannot see the “Ford” script. In this case one photo is correct and one photo has been flipped and is a mirror image of the other photo.





Below is the complete photo showing a LHD USA car:



Below is the complete photo showing the flipped LHD USA car. Not the oil petcocks are visible and the Ford script on the radiator is reversed (not original to a 1913 production but makes the photo easy to see).



Often times the photo is at the wrong angle or too dark in that area to see if the oil petcocks are visible or if they are on the other side of the transmission in the photo. But in the case of the car in front of the library we could see them from the angle the photo was taken so we know that it is the right side of the car. And we see the steering column is on the same side so it is a RHD car. The additional details that it is in Australia helps our confidence that it is a Canadian import. Additionally the English 1913s did not look like that body even though they also were offered as RHD at that time.

Below is a 1914 chassis LHD correctly printed. Note you cannot see the oil petcocks or the manifolds because they are on the other side.




Below is the same photo flipped. But we know it is flipped because I flipped it. But we also can tell it is flipped because the steering wheel appears to be RHD but we cannot see the manifolds. And a real / not flipped photo of a RHD steering column is on the side with the manifolds. Also the side with the oil petcocks on the transmission/oil pan. Also on the same side and the rear axle drain plug. Also on the same side the muffler is mounted.



Hopefully it makes sense to you and others. Or if I’m off in left field again, hopefully some of you can help be get back closer to center field again.

Great questions, discussions, and I believe we are effectively using the forum to help not only build relationships, but also capture some good details about the cars. Thank you Allan and others for both of those good things!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, January 13, 2014 - 03:22 pm:

Hap, thanks for your patience with me. Now I get where you are coming from. Had I the ability to flip things I might have been able to sort it out myself.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 07:32 am:

Allan,

I’m glad I was able to help. I've had several times when I was looking at a photo or illustration etc. and I just did not see what was really there. Several folks on the forum remained very patient with me as they finally were able to help me see what was there. And that could have easily been the case this time also – where I needed to readjust my thinking and notes to better reflect reality. I really like the saying, “None of us is as smart as all of us together.” Thanks to everyone for helping us all learn more about our cars etc.

And for another look at the splash shield with a kick/kink or whatever please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/415257.html

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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