Holley Vaporizer Carburetor...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Holley Vaporizer Carburetor...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 02:52 am:

This is all done from pictures sent to me of the vaporizer carburetor. When I was doing some research on it I found there was also a Ford version and one called a Simmons. If anybody has pictures of these and what the basic differences are please send them.
Now I do have one problem...6283 on my drawing is the needle valve adjustment screw seat...On the cross section it shows a small niche in the base of the carb...none of the carb pictures I got showed that was ever a place for this part. My question is does in go down at the base of the hole from the top of the carb or is there some little niche where it goes like on the cross section?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 06:27 am:

Martin,

You need to include the weighted "air damper" in the upper chamber.

Looking good.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 06:37 am:

Larry, do you know what it looks like? Also does the venturi come out or is it press fit in?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 06:38 am:

Martin, there is a very big problem in that there is no venture in the throttle body. When I was a kid I used caustic soda to clean the castings and it ate the venture completely. I never knew there was supposed to be one in there until just a few years ago. Tried for years to get the dxxx thing to work but could never get the car to start. You got to have that missing venture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 06:54 am:

It's been a while but if I'm thinking right the venture is held in by the little screw on top of the throttle body. I borrowed a throttle body and got the venture out and copied it, I think I used heat to unstick it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 08:37 am:

Martin,

It's part labeled "O" in the cross section.

Holly Vaporizer cross section


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Mahaffey on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 09:54 am:

Martin,

Your diagram is gorgeous!

To cover the vaporizer variations, you also need to include the Kingston B-1 Gasifier and the Kingston B Vaporizer. I can provide you with tear-down photos if you wish to diagram these Ford carburetors.

The Simmons vaporizer is an interesting variation. Although it closely resembles the Ford/Holley vaporizer, it is different in several ways. Here are a couple of photos of the Simmons:
Simmons plate
I can provide more pictures on request. Here is the Kingston B-1:
Kingston B-1Kinston vaporizer
I can provide you with more photos, patent drawings, and Fahnestocks's drawings of these carburetors on request. There is also a parts diagram for the Kingston in the last Ford Model T Service Bulletin in 1927.

On the Ford vaporizer, the drain-valve assembly was modified early in production with a metal disk installed in the top to defeat the coaxial through-hole. This modification completely changed the fuel/air mixture mode. Early Holley vaporizers do not have this modification,and restoration can be confusing without it. The Ford installation diagram in the previous message shows the disk in place.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ED Henline on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 10:10 am:

the 6283 is the seat for the needle valve it goes in the float chamber at the end of needle valve. Ed Henline


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 11:38 am:

Great work martin, I think it looks complicated seeing the exploded view. some of the more internal parts like venturi would be more difficult to photograph. I'll have to look on the carb and make sure it is there on mine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, January 16, 2014 - 05:55 pm:

Larry, I know that's what the profile of that part looks like, but I don't know what the depth view looks like. The first thing I did was trace that drawing and colorize it (because the crosshatch gets kind of had to read in smaller parts)



But as you can see on this drawing there is a place for 6283...but on the carbs I saw there was no such place for it.

Ed, does it go down the same hole 6278 screws into? That guides the mixture needle, must be at the bottom, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 03:41 am:

I've decided that the assembly is just to complex to be shown on one sheet...maybe on a "B" size )11" x 17") but for an "A" size (8.5" x 11") it's just too messy looking and seemed hard to follow.

Throttle/Choke Assembly with Intake Manifold

I'm guess what the Air Damper looks like, so if anybody really knows and can give me a picture of one I'll make the change

Vaporizer Assembly with Exhaust Manifold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 10:46 am:

This photo is the best I can offer as to where that 6283 part is installed. It actually screws into that hole the arrow and pen point are trying to show and that hole ends in a roughly right angle turn to the center and just above the 6216/91 assembly at the bottom that holds the bowl in place.

6283


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 11:27 am:

Martin, great drawings, I think we should put your collection somewhere on the website, what do you think?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 11:54 am:

Martin
I have struggled with vaporizer carburetors (getting properly sealed with no leaks--it appears the Kingston B-1 Gasifier has none of these problems because of the physical design of the upper and lower sections?) and always thought the "automatic air valve" (air damper) was item "O" on "Instruction 98"? The illustrated parts breakdowns (source?) shows "air damper" with no part number (probably because there is no reproduction part available?) and shaft it rotates upon as part number 6263-S.
It sure would be great if someone obtained the Ford Vaporizer prints and listed each part by name and number as a breakdown.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 12:29 pm:

According to the Ford parts book, 6283 is the: ADJUSTING NEEDLE SEAT
So wherever the needle end of 6279 ADJUSTING NEEDLE ASSEMBLY ends up, that's where 6283 goes.
Simple.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 12:35 pm:

Ron, Ford '26 parts list lists it as an "air valve, P/N 6262


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 02:12 pm:

Martin, I went to the shop and opened up one of my vaporizer bodies. I found an error in your part 6263-S.



6263-S consists of five parts not four as pictured. It is two identical screws and lock washers, and a pin. Your exploded drawing makes it look like one screw has a protruding turned pin extension. Instead there are two normal screws with a hole drilled in the threaded end on center. This hole accepts a steel pin on which the weighted air dampner flapper pivots.



There are two curious holes drilled in the back side of the flapper. I haven't de-rusted this part to see if they pierce the part or were just used in the machining process.



TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 11:01 am:

Martin, I figured out those two little holes. They do not go through or connect with anything. It is almost impossible to install that damper once it is removed, so I assume the original installation at the factory was not piece of cake. The two holes are for a tool to grasp the part and position it into the carburetor throat (before the choke plate is in place) so that the pin and screws can be inserted.

I've done this a couple of times without using those holes and an hour of trial and error is always in order!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 06:32 pm:

Terry, thanks for the pictures...I didn't know what that bloody thing looked like so I drew it based on the cross section. As to the screw with the shaft...the parts catalogs have the assembly as the shaft is fixed in the one screw and the other side is just a screw. I didn't know they came apart from what I saw in the catalog.

James, thank you for pointing out where that bloody little seat goes...on the pictures I got from Joe V. I didn't see that hole. I'll make that change. And that Kingston looks real interesting and a fun project. If you have any tear down pictures of it, please send them to me I'd love to draw that one...looks like fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

Maratin,
Another "error" is that the 6277 is not pictured on the assembled view. Fahnestock made the same error in that scan Larry posted. It should be pictured on the "Instruction nr. 98" drawing from Fahnestock's book and on your colored drawing. It sits inside the exhaust manifold on the primary air tube. It is a heat sink which is supposed to act the reverse of the fins on your radiator. I.e. it is to absorb exhaust heat and transfer it to the pipe... so it heats up faster in service. The thermodynamics dictate that this piece of helical wire wrap will not make the primary air tube hotter, just will make it get to operating temperature faster and to be less affected by very cold ambient air.

Out here in Cali I have thought about dispensing with it on my next rebuild as it is probably unnecessary in a warm climate... needed even less in Pacoima!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 09:33 pm:

Ok here's the revised version...

Throttle/Choke Assembly with Intake Manifold


Vaporizer Assembly with Exhaust Manifold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 09:36 pm:

Terry, ok, I see what you're saying...I'll fix that right now, thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 09:39 pm:

Color Cross Section revised...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 09:44 pm:

Martin
Can you add the air/gas flow shown in instruction 98??
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, January 20, 2014 - 12:52 am:

Martin,
Very nice, ... Bravo!

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Monday, January 20, 2014 - 01:46 am:

Ok, I'm not sure this is going to help anybody, but this is the air flow as far as I understand
it.



If this is no help at all, let me know and I'll scrap it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Monday, January 20, 2014 - 08:24 am:

Martin
The reason I recommended adding the air/mixture flow to your excellent drawing is so one can fully understand how the Vaporizer carburetor actually works. Most of the problems with this type carburetor are caused by leakage in the Primary Air tube upper/lower seals and Outlet Tube Nut seal or the seal between the carburetor base and exhaust manifold with the Vaporizer Plate sandwiched in between. When it is not leaking and working correctly it is a great carburetor, but if it is leaking air or the Vaporizer Plate is rusted through I is a boatload of trouble.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 02:41 am:

Ron, sooooo, you're saying this works for you? Or did you have something else in mind?

What I'm trying to show is that the air flow is a constant, forced through the carburetor by the greater flow from the choke opening above. It is drawn down the heat pipe with that coil wrapped around it that acts like a heat exchanger, leaching heat from the exhaust manifold and up along with the gas helping to vaporize it. The colder air coming from the choke opening, creates vacuum drawing the vapor up and out the tube, then mixes with the cooler air flow that is forcing it through the manifold into the head, which to my mind would reduce the mixture temperature slightly (shown by slightly cooler color). I'd bet this thing runs real rich until the exhaust manifold heats up right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 11:49 am:

Beautiful work! One error still is there, though. The drain valve body should have no through hole in it (like the normal Holley drain valve body has). Your illustration of 6216-91, the correct part call-out, is really of 6216-21. Many a Vaporizor has failed to perform due to this common error.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 08:10 pm:

Scott...I went back and looked at that part, you're right, it has no hole in it, so I made that change. The part number however is 6216-91 for the Vaporizer the part number for the Holley NH is 6216-21.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

Has anyone ever discovered the purpose of that air flap or what happens different if it is removed?

I'm sure it mist be needed of henry would not have had it installed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Mahaffey on Thursday, January 23, 2014 - 09:25 am:

The air flap automatically maintains a constant air-speed through the Venturi nozzle, and therefore a "constant depression", or a constant level of vacuum in the vertical tube that feeds fuel vapor into the Venturi. When running slow, the volume of air per unit time is low, and the flap tends to close. The amount of air goes down, but the speed as it slips under the flap remains high. At high speed, the air rushing in opens the flap all the way, and the air-speed is about the same. The ratio of gas-to-air thus remains constant regardless of the volume of vapor required.

A similar strategy was used in the Stromberg CD-175 carburetors that were installed in most imported foreign cars in the US in the 1970s.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, January 23, 2014 - 11:15 am:

Jim, that sounds like a great plan that would have also improved the earlier carbs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Mahaffey on Thursday, January 23, 2014 - 03:23 pm:

James,

It was an excellent design, and possibly ahead of its time. The Simmons vaporizer used an identical swinging flap with a much more robust vaporizer plate, adjustable from the dash.

The Kingston B and B-1 vaporizers used an entirely different strategy. In the Kingston, the entire Venturi nozzle rotated in and out of the air-stream on a drum for throttling, and the fuel-air mixture was regulated by a coaxial valve assembly, with the vapor introduced at the side of the Venturi instead of the bottom. To choke, the air was valved off, and fuel was injected directly into the top of the intake structure. This solved a problem of having a long way for an initial fuel charge to travel in the vaporizer maze, but it was also possible to flood the engine with too much choke.

Jim


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