OT - Can anyone help I.D. These pics?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - Can anyone help I.D. These pics?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 01:18 am:

This is Louis C. Block, long time Ford employee who became the Ford Philadelphia Branch Manager in 1908:



Block is reported in this Ford photo (1906), although not identified in order. James Couzens is on the top left, and Roy Pelletier is in the middle with a dark mustache. Can anyone tell me which you think is Louis Block?



Finally, are either of these men Louis Block (driving a 1906 Model N)?




Thanks for your help or opinions. There's a story behind this (of course :-) ).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Kiefaber on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 02:18 am:

First person on the left bottom row. I believe he is not in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 02:50 am:

Thanks Bob, I put those two and the driver together.

The car pic is taken in New York City, Jan 1906, so the two in the car may be quite cold (changing their appearance?). I thought the known "Block" photo nose might look similar to the driver?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 07:08 am:

Rob,

I'm not good with faces etc. so I would recommend you use the observations of others rather than mine. You might want to have a few women take a look at the photos. We meet folks all the time an my wife will immediately notice how a son or daughter has facial features of their Dad or Mom. I on the other hand seldom pickup on minor differences or features that are very similar. In the three photos above -- the shape of Mr. Block's right ear does not seem to be the same as the driver of the Model N. Obviously a higher resolution (without the dots) photos would help.

Another type of person who maybe able to help you is an artist/illustrator. The one I knew from 20 years ago talked about his art classes. How they learned to look at a person and be able to draw what they would look like from another angle or with their arms lifting something heavy etc. without them having to actually see them lift something heavy. Just a thought and of course Richard Eagle is a regular poster you could send him a private message via his profile at http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=rich_eagle-users . He could let you know if he or someone he knows is good at that with people etc.

But, I would like to see more of the article as I suspect based on the little bit I can read it also discusses the Fisk "Quick Detachable" Tire or rim. I would like to know if it says anything about Fisk supplying those wheels/rims to Ford during that time.

Thank you for not only doing so much research but also for sharing it with others! Thank you!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 07:47 am:

Hap,

Thank you. I'll check, but as with most magazines of the period, I don't believe the surrounding text was related to the photo.

I did find an article that said Ajax and Firestone were the sole suppliers of tires for the Model N when the first cars were finally assembled for sale/delivery in mid 1906. I'll try to fond the article,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:09 am:

Hap,

Found the reference to Ajax and Firestone supplying the first N tires (I knew I read it somewhere).

This is part of a multi-page review of the new Model N, published in an August 1906 issue of "Motor Way" magazine. The text is a bit garbled (I think the typesetter reversed a couple of lines), but the spot also references the tire "combine" that was going on at the same time Ford was fighting the Selden Patent Infringement case. In other articles Ford says he will not buy tires from members of the "tire combine", likening the group to the A.L.A.M. (licensed auto manufacturers paying Selden patent fees).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:33 am:

Rob, one trick I was told years ago was to look at photos of faces upside down. It's apparently less distracting when comparing features.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Dick,

It's worth a try. I'll post them upside down (are you messing with me :-) ).

Thanks for the suggestion,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:39 am:

Rob, not messing with you. I learned it in the framework of working with passport photos. (Of course, the Consulate General could have been messing with me... :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:39 am:

Ok, let's see if this helps.



Dick, I can see where it allows one to look at features separately.

It would be nice to determine one of these gentlemen is Block, but not important to where I'm going with Mr. Block and the first Models N and K.

Thanks for your help,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:44 am:

Hap,
Another "tire" article. This June 24 1906 piece says 4,000 tires are being shipped to Ford, from Firestone, proof the Model N is about ready for delivery. It mentions the Firestone "mechanically fastened double tube tires."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 11:26 am:

Rob,

Yes, even in the early Ford Times the photo often relates to an article on a different page. But if you can easily find the other article and/or keep an eye out for information about Fisk possibly also supplying mechanically fastened rims/tires for use on the 1906 Model N Fords, that would be appreciated. I am hoping to be able to completely rule out Fisk mechanically fastened rim/tires from being used from the factory on the 1906 Model N Fords. The two articles above indicate that the early Model Ns were fitted with the Firestone mechanically fastened rims and tires for the 28 x 2 1/2 inch tires or the 28 x 3 clinchers. But were there any Fisk rims? I hope there were not -- but I'm trying to completely rule it out (which is harder as it only takes one exception!).

Note the article above stated 1000 sets (4000 tires). The first 1000 Model Ns came out between the middle of Jul 1906 and the beginning of Oct 1906. Of course many of those would have been fitted with the larger 28 x 3 clincher rims and tires for $50 more -- but the clincher rims were not the mechanically fastened style.

It is already very very likely that your car was fitted with the Firestone mechanically fastened style rims & tires based on the articles above. And since they likely were Firestone rims and tires it is even more likely that N #3 may have been owned by Harvey Firestone (ref the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/415417.html ) I would encourage you to check on Harvey Firestone and the cars he owned during 1906 - 1908 I'll keep an eye out also -- but you have the system down for finding things! Good on you!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Woolf on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

Rob,

I think Louis Block is the person to the right of James Couzens.

Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:25 pm:

Now they look like Australians........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:30 pm:

Rob, I have Louis Blocks bound issues of Ford Times. There are quite a few pictures of him in those, ill go through them in the next couple of evenings and see what i can find. Kim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:55 pm:

Kim,

Louis Block has an interesting, even infamous history involving Model Ns and Model Ks. I plan on starting a thread about him tomorrow or Monday.

How did you come across his "Ford Times"? Do you have other info about him?

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 12:11 am:

Hap,

Another reference, along with a photo, of Firestone tires being shipped to Ford. The issue is dated July 5, 1906. The new tires look really white in the photo:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 12:48 am:

And the Fisk tire article:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 12:55 am:

Dan,
I placed the one to the right of J. Couzens in the "lineup"..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 02:56 am:

And I thought Louis Block was the guy to the right of Roy Pelletier in the group photo.. Hard to tell who's who:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Kiefaber on Sunday, January 19, 2014 - 03:04 am:

Dan after, looking closer I agree with you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, January 20, 2014 - 07:14 am:

Rob,

Thank you for adding the rest of the Fisk tire paragraph. As you suggested the photo has nothing to do with that paragraph. I wanted to review what the Fisk paragraph said, to see if it mentioned or did not mention supplying Ford. And it did not mention Ford at all.

But Fisk was still continuing to produce the mechanically fastened rims and tires. If you ever run across references to Fisk supplying the mechanically fastened rims and tires to Ford Motor Company -- please let me know as I would like to double check the date range they were used.

In "Pate's Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia" chapter 6 page 89 - 90 he discusses the Fisk Mechanically fastened rim and a paraphrase follows: That it was probably introduced on the Model A Ford around Jun or Jul 1904. That there were other companies that produced similar rims.

It also has that on Mar 30, 1906 there was a letter from the Ford sales department to one of its Ford Agents (dealers). The letter mentions that during 1905 Ford would furnish any type of tire that the customer wanted. But that because of a disastrous incident with the "mechanically fastened" tire, Ford was now restrictive and would go with the Firestone brand.

I think that would have been the end of the use of the Fisk brand "mechanically fastened" wheels on Ford cars -- approximately 3 1/2 months before the first shipments of the Model N.

If anyone notices how to tell the difference between a Fisk "mechanically fastened" rim and a Firestone "Mechanically fastened" rim please let us know. And is there anyway to see the difference in photographs.

Based on all the above, I believe all the Model N's that were fitted with "mechanically fastened" tires and rims would have only used the Firestone brand.

Again thank you for all your research.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, January 20, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

Hap,

It appears Fisk and Firestone rims were similar (diagram). The question is if the holes are spaced the same on the felloes?





And, it looks like you don't want to skip a payment on your new Fisk tires:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 06:16 am:

Rob,

Thank you so much for posting the additional Fisk information. I believe those are actually the later model "demountable rim" style. I.e. you could carry a fully inflated tire already on the spare rim and install the complete rim and tire and drive off. The one I am trying to find more information about is the "Mechanically Fastened" Fisk -- which I believe looks very similar to the Firestone "Mechanically Fastened" wheels and rims.

Please don't spend time looking for that information, but as you are looking for information about the Fords, if you run across Fisk supplying Ford (1904 to 190?) please let us know. Also if there are any illustrations etc. showing Fisk vs Firestone in the early 1906 time frame or earlier -- that would be helpful.

Again, thank you for all your research and support to our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, January 21, 2014 - 06:45 am:

Hap,

This shows the earlier Fisk "detachable" tire. I've found no mention of Fisk supplying Ford, however will PM you if I find anything.

Rob

"The Automobile" January 3,1903:


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