Joe Gemsa head, NOS

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Joe Gemsa head, NOS
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 08:50 pm:

I have located a Joe Gemsa Model T head, No. 25 that is NOS never bolted on complete with valves, springs, cover and never used rockers. What is something like this worth? I am putting together a speedster and thought this is would be a good addition, but I was wondering what I should pay for it. Any input is appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 08:51 pm:

a whole bunch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 08:54 pm:

Haha, thanks Clayton, but that doesn't really give me a starting point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 08:57 pm:

oh, and it has a NOS dual carb intake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 09:01 pm:

2046.52


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 09:09 pm:

Well, that's a starting point Ed. I'm kind of trying to take a poll on this one before I say what he is asking. I've never come across something like this so it would be easy for me to get taken. I'm pretty sure he wont take the $2046.52, but it never hurts to try, right? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:00 pm:

reality? i'm no expert, but with "common" rajo's and fronty's bringing 3-6 grand, i'd put that more like 6-8 grand being much more rare, and much more desirable to those that can afford such exotic toys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:13 pm:

That was my thought as well. This one has an asking price of $3500 which seemed reasonable tho still on the upper end of my budget. It will probably disappear if I don't act, hence my inquiry here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:13 pm:

I going out on a limb and say 8 to 10,000. See the ad in the classifieds. While yes that one is a complete engine with modifications and a known history just the head and intake might be in that ball park.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:22 pm:

if your not on the way now, you better get goin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:39 pm:

Ok... now here is the kicker. There is a set of 5 21" buffalo wires with tires and hubs for $3k. I only have the funds for one. Which one would you grab?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:42 pm:

the head, no doubt. you can get wire rims any day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:46 pm:

I agree.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 10:51 pm:

thats market value for the wheels. they are not exactly easy to find either, but your stealing the head. keep in mind you will never see another one for sale. most those things do not come to the surface for any body to get, they are sold out of sight to a friend or some one who has known it was there for 20 years. best is to "bundle", as frank would say, borrow some money, its a better investment than your 401k


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 11:01 pm:

this one has me dreaming... if got them both, you could sell the head, have money to buy one of chaffins new heads and money left to pay off the loan, and build a cool over head speedster with buffalo wheels, small shopping spree of parts for it, case of beer, dinner for the wife, and then some left for retirement account


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 11:03 pm:

Thanks Clayton, the head is actively for sale and the rims are sitting in a garage where they have been for years. I suppose that is a consideration as well. There is actually another used head, No. 9, for sale for the same price. Disassembled, but it appears to be all there. These are from different individuals obviously. If anyone is interested, assuming it is still available and after my decision tomorrow, PM me and I will gladly pass on the information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 11:08 pm:

And you haven't bought all 3 items Yet?? I know $$ are tight but buy all 3 sell the unassembled head and use the other two NOW


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harris, Huntington Beach California on Saturday, January 25, 2014 - 11:43 pm:

Ryan: My dad "Fast Frank" has two Gemsa engines... not just the heads as well as a set of 20 or 21 inch Buffalo wheels with hubs that have been discussed in prior Forum posts. You may want to reach out to him before you move on this. I'm helping him thin out his inventory & you may be able to strike a deal :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 12:16 am:

I think Joe Gemsa began making those in the late 1940's or early 1950s so you should keep that in mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 01:19 am:

This head is dated 1975


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 02:19 am:

I still have GEMSA #11. Complete rebuild and ready to drop in and go. A real bargain at $16,000. Try locating and building a similar complete engine for the same price. Doc Pruden Hill Climb fame included for no extra charge!GEMSA 11


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 08:01 am:

To me, a head made in 1975 is not as desirable as one made in 1925.

It is a neat piece for sure, but not authentic to the Model T period. I just don't see a modern head going for 8-10k.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 08:28 am:

An widely advertised auction or Ebay will set the true value. The value of the head is the highest price somebody will pay. It is realistically probably worth no more than 3-4 k, but I suspect less than a complete original and working era manufactured ohv accessory head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 09:13 am:

Agree with Derek. You can't compete at Goodwood, or Monterrey Historics, or vintage Le Mans events with a cylinder head made after WWII on your T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 01:06 pm:

I saw one two years ago at Turlock..asking $4K.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, January 26, 2014 - 11:17 pm:

I am with Derek K and Royce on this one. The Gemsa heads appeal to a lot of people and may be more rare than the era original heads. But there are still a lot of people that do care about "era correct". That I think still makes an original head worth more provided it is in good solid condition.
I personally would rather have a stock Ford flathead on a T speedster (or anything else) than a Gemsa head. I do not mean any disrespect for Joe Gemsa or anything he did. I know people that knew him personally and admired him. I have heard a few stories over the years. Some of what he did and when he did it is quite admirable. But I try to restore to "era correct". I know I am not the only one that prefers era correct. I have seen it when it comes time to sell cars also. Yes, the Gemsa head will go for a lot more than the stock engine. But for what it costs to build, you may be better off with a Rajo or Frontenac.
That's me.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 12:55 am:

There were two Gemsa T heads this weekend at the Turlock swap meet. One was built for Clem Sala offered at $3500. No sale as of Sunday afternoon. The other I did not see but was said to be NOS at $3500, probably the same head as spoken of on this thread. Also no sale as of Saturday afternoon. Gemsa heads are rare but not impossible to get, all it takes is money. They are not for the average speedster engine, they are high strung thorobred racing equipment. For a reliable high performance speedster, your best money is on a Chaffin Rajo.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 01:40 am:

I have to agree with Erik and the others. If I was an individual entertaining the idea of building a speedster, I would go with a more period correct RAJO or Frontenac overhead valve cylinder head. The GEMSA really is a racing proposition only. Sure the GEMSA would beat the pants off of both, but it would not be practical for everyday use. Higher RPM equates to more frequent upkeep and repair. READ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
The GEMSA does have the wow factor though:D


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ryan Taylor on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 03:18 am:

I am currently building my 2 Rajos at my shop for customers so seeing the Gemsa rally did have the "wow factor" going for it since it was different and if I was building a hill climber I would be all over it. Once I slept off my excitement I remembered that I really am a vintage equipment guy at heart and even as amazing as these setups are, in the end, they are still from the '70s. I appreciate all the input and advice, but I think I am going to buy the Buffalo wires so I can finish underslinging my chassis and hope I have the money when a really interesting vintage setup comes to the surface.
Thanks again,
Ryan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 08:21 am:

The Gemsa that Eric mentions for $3500...made for Clem Sala, is the same one I saw two years ago at Turlock...for $4000. What does that say?
I prefer my Roof 16.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Kerndt on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 11:53 am:

Buy the RAJO that Mark Chaffin is reproducing. He has perfected this unit, has all the necessary replacement parts and is just a nice unit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 01:58 pm:

I have two complete Gemsa engines prepared by Joe Gemsa in 1973. They are both oil pressure engines. One has a T crank in order to run in that class and the other has a B crank. Both are twin spark cross-flow units. There are two intake manifolds one is a single and the other is a dual. You can use either one on either engine. There are three dual throat down draft Stromberg carburetors. All ports are one and a half inches. Both engines have headers and are rated at nine and a half to one compression ratio. These engines can run either a Model T or Ford C4 automatic transmission. Two C4's come with them.

They are for sale as I am not well at this time and will not be able too finish two more cars. I want $10,000 each but will sell them together for $16,000 as I am losing my storage.

I have a set of five 20 inch Buffalo wire wheels with hubs, hub caps, and locking rings. There are front hubs with and without front brake flanges. You can have either one but not both. You can have four wheel brakes with this set-up. I want $4,000 fore these wheels and hubs. The set also has a spare wheel mount with a cap. Prices are negotiable . . . . Fast Frank


gemsa 1



gemsa 3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 02:46 pm:

Frank. on this last picture the oil pump is run where the gen was. Any info as to the type and could we see a better more detailed picture posted? Jerry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Monday, January 27, 2014 - 03:22 pm:

The engines are in storage and I can only get in there to see stuff of Friday's. Below is a picture of the front of the T crank engine. Note the twin plugs.
It uses a special Gemsa drive plate to run the oil pump. ?yes I have the rockers.



gemsa more


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 - 04:38 pm:

Jerome, I may be able to get to the storage where the engine is located tomorrow, Wednesday and if I do I will get any names and serial numbers off of the oil pump. Frank





gemsa


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