Demountable clincher rim question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Demountable clincher rim question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 11:36 am:

The spare rim on my new 24 Fordor is different to the rest. I found this illustration on an old post search. I think I have the 2845-C rims on the road with a 2845-D as spare, although it might be a Ford 2845B. The post says the 2845D will fit the same felloe with different lugs - what about the 2845B and can anyone tell me which lugs I need?

Obviously I could just go shopping for another 2845C, but not so easy in the UK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 03:49 pm:

Jem,

BLUF: (Bottom Line Up Front) Recommend you take your time and ensure that you have a spare rim that will fit properly on all of your wheels. That may require you to purchase a different rim or possibly a different wheel or perhaps you will be able to purchase the different lugs -- but without seeing what you have it would be difficult to tell for sure. If you can post some photos of your current rims, felloes, attaching lugs, and lug nuts that would probably be helpful (but not always).


Additional discussion:

Congratulations on your new to you 1924 Fordor. It should extend your touring season over your open car. You did not mention if it is a USA, Canadian, or UK car. That may have a bearing in the answers so please let us know. According to “The English Model T Ford” book page 135 it indicates that both the Kelsey lose lug (added by Hap - Kelsey 2845) and the Hayes fixed lug (added by Hap - Hayes 2845B) style demountable rims/wheels were used in English production during 1921 & 1922 and that they are NOT interchangeable. They go on to say that from 1923 and later Ford of England only used the Hayes style fixed lug demountables.

Note the USA May 15, 1920 Ford Service Bulletin also shares that same warning that the Hayes and Kelsey rims are NOT interchangeable:



While that is the official position, some restorers/drivers have successfully used the Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B with the fixed lugs successfully on the Kelsey style felloe that was set up originally to use the lose lug style Kelsey 88 rims. That has been discussed but at the moment I cannot locate the thread. The key is to make sure the rim seats fully on the inside of the felloe and NOT on the legs of the fixed lugs. In some cases that meant adding a slot or depression so the leg of the Hayes style lug would not hit the outside of the felloe and prevent the rim from seating fully. Again – NOT recommended by Ford but apparently used successfully by a few folks.

Canada used both of those styles at different times during the production.

And the way Ford USA handled the demountable rims was not one of Ford's better ideas. Ford used 5 different styles of demountable wheels/rims. And in the case of many of those styles -- they were produced by more than one manufacture. While just about any 30 x 3 1/2 inch original Ford furnished clincher will fit on just about any 30 x 3 1/2 Ford furnished wheel/felloe, they do not necessarily fit safely or function safely. And of course other car companies and after market companies also offered 30 x 3 1/2 inch clincher wheels and rims which can add to the confusion. The 30 x 3 1/2 Hayes rim that came with some of the Chevy cars can easily be modified to fit and function like the fixed lug Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B rim above. Relocate the valve stem hole and they work well (they have a lug that is open that the Ford did not have open – but it functions great. It would lose points in a judged car show but other than that situation it works great.) But some of the other rims cannot be easily adapted.

I would suggest verifying what type of wheels/felloes you have. Are they all the same type? If so which type? If not, which types do you have?

There have been some cases when the person had a flat and found that the spare rim did not fit properly on their wheel/felloe. And for that matter there have been cases where the loose lug rim was placed onto a wheel designed for the fixed lug rim. The rim rotated and cut the valve stem causing the tire to go flat.

Note only the Hayes 2845B and the Ford 2845B had the “fixed lugs” permanently attached to the rims. Note that in 1924 Ford mandated that all manufacturers including Motor Wheel, Kelsey, Cleveland, & Firestone would manufacture only the fixed lug Hayes style (functionally the same as the Ford 2845B as well as the Hayes 2845B) rim and wheel. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels that says:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924, the following appeared:
Wheels and Rims

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So in addition to the Brand or who made the wheel and rim you also need to verify which style it was produced as. I.e. we cannot just say all the Kelsey wheels were loose lug as those produced by Kelsey for Ford sometime after Mar 1924 were now fix lug rims and wheels rather than the previous loose lug rims and wheels.
Note the illustration you posted was also used in the Jan 1924 USA Ford Service Bulletin. Again discussing that there are those different rims that were used on the new Fords in the USA originally. Note again that ONLY the Ford 2845B rim and the Hayes 2845B had the fixed lugs. The other 3 each had their own style of loose lug that was used to attach them to their rim.

Some photos to help clarify what we are talking about. Note that both the 2845-C and 2845D have the locating lug designed to fit into the locating cup on their respective felloes. The valve stem goes through that lug. If you use those rims on a wheel that does NOT have the locating cup for the locating lug to fit into, they will tend to rotate and cut the valve stem. They may also not fit properly / seat properly depending on how the felloe is shaped. Thank you Steve Shelton for the photos.



The chart below is from the Dec 1926 USA Ford Service Bulletins:



The second line has the 2845C style loose lug rim, it could have been manufactured by Firestone or Cleveland for Ford. It used the 2846C loose lug that had the captive nut in the lug shown below (Thank you Steve Shelton for the photo.)



And from the Price List of Parts they show:



I have asked before and perhaps someone has responded and I misplaced the photos. But if someone has some good photos of the 2845C loose lug with the captive nut would they please post and/or send them to me? And while we are asking – if someone has a known felloe that the 2485C or a photo of the felloe the 2485D rim fits, please let us know. Royce posted some photos that show the outside of the felloe that the 2845D is mounted on shown below in a moment. But are the two felloes the same and can take either rim with the appropriate lugs or are they different? And if so how can we tell?

The 2845D rim was also produced by Firestone and Cleveland (and perhaps others) for Ford. It is listed on line 3 of the chart above. It used the 2846D lug and the standard lug nut that was also used on the Hayes 2845 and the Ford 2845 fix lug rims. I.e. it had a chamfered hole for the tapered lug nut to fit into. The photos below were provided by Royce --- (thank you Royce!):



Below is the 2845D rim that uses that lug -- again not the lug around the valve stem prevents the rim from rotating on the felloe:



Below is the 2845D rim mounted onto the felloe with the 2846D lug and the 2848B the lug nut used on the loose lug above as well as the Hayes 2845B and Ford 2845B rims as well as the later 21 inch balloon tire fixed lug rims part #2845E.



Note Kelsey also had a loose lug 30 x 3 1/2 clincher demountable – but it used a flat lug nut and a different loose lug and a different rim and felloe and had a couple of variations over the years of some of those parts. For photos of the Kelsey style -- please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/33266.html Most of the Canadian production used the Kelsey loose lug clincher wheels & rims until 1925ish or so when I believe a fixed lug clincher rim of the Hayes style was introduced as well as the balloon tires and wheels (which also were initially available in loose lug and then later fixed lug style.

Jem, I hope that has helped you some. Again, photos of your rims, felloes, lugs, and lug nuts might help clarify the situation along with which country produced your car or at least which country produced the wheels and rims. Again congratulations on your new enclosed car.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 05:32 pm:

Wow! I think I may just grab the tyre levers and puncture outfit from the brass car.

Hap, you are famed for your comprehensive answers, and this is no exception - I will take photos of the rims tomorrow if it isn't too cold & damp to play in the garage.

The car is US made, I just bought it over the internet and have little history. Serial no dates it to June 1924, it's been rebodied as it had been cut down into a pickup (the Fordor had been cut n shut into a 2dr cab). It has a 2013 NewYork sticker in the windscreen.

When weather allows I will get it outside and post photos and let you all tear it to pieces ;^)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 08:17 pm:

Jem,

Thank you for the kind words. Steve Shelton and I are gathering data to put an article together about wheels and rims– so we are further a long on that question than some of the others we have not been researching. And thank you to all the folks that have been contributing to that data over the years – there are not many good photos readily available in some of the usual books etc – and the posters here have filled in a lot of the gaps.

If you are not in a hurry, recommend you wait until the weather is nicer there. [Oh for a heated shop…] Here in South Carolina we are having unusually cold and snowy weather. Bobby Corbett is credited with the flyer below:



If the engine was original to the chassis, a Jun 1924 USA car would most likely have had the Hayes style wheel with the fixed lug rims (produced by all the companies by then). That is based on the Ref above: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels that says:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924, the following appeared:

Wheels and Rims

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.

+++++++++++++

But of course over the years a USA car could easily have had one or more of the wheels/rims replaced or even the engine or body replaced.

Depending on what you want to do with the car – as long as you are able to have a spare rim to fit any of the wheels you should not get stuck because of a flat tire. And if your wheels are mismatched, you may find it is easier to have two spare rims with tires one for each type of wheel style rather than replacing the wheel or wheels to have all one type of rim. But I think you will be happier if you can trade and/or purchase enough parts to have all four wheels be the same (or close enough to the same) that a single spare rim would safely fit correctly on all four wheels.

If/when you post the photos if you don’t see me post an answer or at least a “I’m looking at them” please drop me a note. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile. My e-mail address is the third line down or you can send me a private message via the forum. None of us have the time to look at all the postings. And while all of the posting have something for us to learn – this is one that I am specifically looking for some additional information about.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 12:30 pm:

Here's the comparison of the 2 rims: the spare is on the left, all 4 on the road are like the right. Offering the rim up. it appears it will fit if I have the right lugs.



Here are the lugs, which won't work on the spare rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:28 pm:

Jim,

First the safety part. If you have not yet verified that the felloes on your wheels have the cup for the locating lug of the 2845C rim to fit into, I would recommend doing that before driving (unless flats will not cause problems). If you have the 2845C rim mounted to a felloe originally designed for a Kelsey 2845; Hayes 2845B; or Ford 2845 rim, those felloes do NOT have a cup for the locating lug on your 2845C rim to fit into. And therefore, the rim can rotate on the felloe. That is more of a problem on the rear wheels with braking and acceleration, but it can happen on the front or rear wheels.

The best way to check is to loosen the rim and look. An alternative method is to look at the valve stem hole on your felloe. Normally if it has a ring around it, as shown below, the felloe came with the locating lug. The problem is – do you know if someone ground it down some time in the past? If there is not a cup, and the rim rotates on the felloe it will cut the valve stem and cause a flat. Which depending one when and where the flat occurs can be a non-event (I had a flat on my T once while it was sitting in the drive way and I was doing something in the garage. What a polite car it was.) The primer photos below are compliments of Steve Shelton (Thank you Steve!). Note the locating cup in one but NOT the other felloe. In this case the felloe without the locating cup is a Hayes style – designed for the fixed lug Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B rims.



Below is a rusty Kelsey felloe without the locating cup and the black painted felloe has the locating cup (photo by Hap).



Below, notice that on the wheel/felloe with the locating cup there is a raised circle around the valve stem where the cup has been attached on the inside. The rusty Kelsey does NOT have that raised area around the valve stem. I do think but I need more data to verify that the Hayes and Ford copies of the Hayes felloes do not have that raised area either.



Thank you for the e-mail. Note if your spare rim shown below originally came on a USA produced Model T, I’m 99.99% sure it is a Kelsey 88. If it was produced by some other company as either an after market or original equipment on a different make – then I don’t know for sure what type of rim it is. According to Layden Butler at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/33266.html the Kelsey 88s were also used on Gray autos 1922-23 and some Maxwell production for 1919-22. .

Below is the photo of your spare rim. Note it does NOT have the locating lug around the valve stem and it does NOT have the nice rolled curve for the removable lugs 2846C to fit up against. You 2845C rims used that locating lug around the valve stem fitted into the cup in the felloe to keep the rims from rotating on the felloe.




But the Kelsey 88 rim that Ford listed it as Kelsey 2845 has the lug to the right of the valve stem. That Kelsey lug is designed to fit over the lug bolt and keep the rim from rotating on the felloe.

The Kelsey 88 rim is designed to use the Kelsey removable lugs on a Kelsey felloe. Below from the thread mentioned above we have the Kelsey 88 lugs also available new from the vendors see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/2846B.aspx [the price has gone up since the 1920s]. Photo of the lugs from e-bay a while back:



Below is a photo of the Kelsey 88 rim, felloe, lug, and lug nut from the Nov-Dec 1978 "Vintage Ford" page 31 used by permission.



Below is a photo posted by Bob wood back in Apr 2010 of his Kelsey felloe and rim and then with the lug installed:







In the illustration above note that the Kelsey Rim is seated against both the inside and outside of the felloe – i.e. they both have a flange for the rim to compress on. Note also that the removable lug is NOT bottomed out against the felloe. The rim gets tight on the felloe BEFORE the lug bottoms out on the felloe. Ok with wear, that may not be the case – but in the original drawing it was. That also shows the locating lug from the rim going over the lug bolt. Note also the lug nut is FLAT and not flared. Finally not that the felloe has a raised notch for the lose lug to press against. Note there were several variations in the rim/lug/lug nut/felloe combinations produced by Kelsey. But that is the general method they were secured.

So the next question we need to ask, are all your felloes the ones with the cup for the locating lug around the valve stem to fit into? Or do you have some other styles? If the answer is they all have the cup – then the best solution would be to locate one more 2845C rim.

Disclaimer: I still have not found anyone that can tell me if the felloes for the 2845C rim are the same as the felloes for the 2845D rims. I don’t know if they are or if they are not. Does anyone have that answer?

You could obtain four of the removable lugs used on the 2845D rims, obtain the proper lug nuts with the chamfered edge (same as the ones used on the fixed lug Hayes and Ford) and check to see if they would properly secure your 2845 rim. It might work or it might look ok but fail on you? I don’t think the Kelsey loose lugs will work for you UNLESS you have a Kelsey felloe with the slots for the lugs to fit against. But you could obtain 4 Kelsey lugs, 4 Kelsey lug nuts, and see if the rim is properly secured or not. Note if the rim fits well against the inside flange of the felloe so it is supported, the lug that straddles the lug bolt will keep the rim from rotating. Those lugs, rims, and felloes were designed to work together without a raised notch in the felloe. But I do not know if they would or would not work with the felloes you have. Those are the style in Royce’s photos above.

And as mentioned once before, some folks have reported success in using the fixed lug Hayes 2845B or Ford 2845B rim on their non-Hayes felloes. They had to make sure the rim seated against the felloe in the back properly and was not held off the felloe by the lugs on the rim.

And if you were in a situation where you had to use the Kelsey rim on your other felloes (assumes you felloes all take the same rims) you might be able to have that quarter round are cut, attched and welded to the rim you have. It would NOT be authentically correct, but it might function ok (or not – depending on how the rim fits, how long the welds last etc.) In that case you would build up the rim at the four areas the lug bolts would be located. Make that look and fit like the same area on the 2845C. For cosmetic reasons you could make the area around the entire rim – but I think it would be a lot easier to do the four areas than the entire rim. But remember you and your loved ones are riding on that rim & wheel. A paint job that peels off is frustrating but normally is not really dangerous. A rim that comes off would be a major concern.

I’m sorry we don’t have an easier answer. And of course we still do not know what type of felloes you have on each of your wheels – i.e. with or without a cup? Kelsey, Hayes style, other?

Note, from the photos your other rims and lugs appear to be the 2845C style.

Good luck and keep us posted. And remember what Mark Twain said, “It is better to be careful a 1000 times than dead once.”

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:27 am:

Here's some more photos. The felloes have the cup to hold the valve and prevent rotation. Also, offering the spare rim up to the felloe, it seems to me that it could be snugged up safely using the correct lug, although I think I would only use it as a get-you-home fix. I will probably still carry a spare tube.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:54 am:

Jem,

The 2846D lugs might work. And of course you could try the Kelsey lugs but I don’t think they will work as you do not have the slit in the felloe for them to fit up against. Ford would NOT have mounted that Kelsey rim onto the other style felloe. If it was a suitable substitute he could have stopped stocking the other style of loose lug rims and said “just use he Kelsey style 2845 rims. But he did not say that, instead he said stock the parts to support the “service requirements” for all four types of the 30 x 3 ½ inch demountable rims. [Note the Hayes and Ford Hayes style rim parts were interchangeable but if you count those a individual rims then 5 styles of demountable 30 x 3 ½ rims. ]

You could also explore having a custom lug produced to secure the Kelsey rim onto the other style wheel/felloe. As long as the rim mounted firmly against the felloe so the load is transferred from the rim to the felloe and NOT to the lugs – it should work. But I would not recommend using it except as a spare and then only for a short distance at reduced speeds. Actually if I was younger I would say test it while wearing a motor cycle crash helmet and leathers – but as I’ve grown older I prefer to avoid pain.

Have you checked with Neil Tuckett at http://tuckettbrothers.co.uk/ to see if he has one of those 2845C style rims? I would guess there are one or two over there and they are not being used on a car because they don’t fit the Hayes or Kelsey style wheels that were used in England. If he does not have one, is he bringing another container from the states that you could pay him to include two more of the 2845C rims for you? If so, I think that would be a better way to go. It would give you a spare tire on the proper rim and you would have one more extra rim in case one of the other ones was damaged.

And if you have a chance to put a ruler next to the removable lug -- that would help us better judged the size. Not needed for your question -- but to help others find the correct part in the future.

Good luck and let us know what you discover.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:59 am:

Yes, I'll probably have a trip over to Neil's in the car once I have plates for it. And I'll post a photo of the lug with a ruler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 12:54 am:

Hap, I sent you a photo of a lug that fits over the felloe in 2011 without the need for a slot in the felloe. The lug fits snugly onto the flat inner surface between the spokes and when tightened down clamps the rim against the felloe.

I will have to track it down now but I was told that style was an early lug used when the demountable rims first appeared.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 04:55 am:

Nothing worth watching tonight on TV so I went hunting for that lug,

Here it is suppose to be a Hayes. First thought is that they are hand made one offs but the owner of the car has found extra ones at swap meets over the years. The nuts are separate from the lug.

hayes02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Geisler on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 11:46 pm:

I have many of these that I have squirreled away for 30 years now. Maybe we ought to take a tally on what we have and including what we have on our cars and post which we have extra and what type we need. Swap them at swap meets with other members to get complete sets. I don't know... it is just a suggestion for an up coming thread. No I wont start it. Just a suggestion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 12:05 am:

I could be wrong but I think Lang's may be the only ones selling the repo. Kelsey Lugs.

Regards, John


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