Set this to a guy in Texas a few days ago. Thought you might like to see a couple pics of it. Sorry about the cardboard box in the background of the first pic. The stool I sit on while I run them on the test engine was wet.
That's a real work of art, Stan. Wow. Now you just made me disappointed all over again that you don't do "modern" carbs like my old Carter and Rochesters I have here...grin...
I should mention that he didn't want to pay for any show polish so there are still some scratches, etc. This is how it showed up. It wasn't that bad except the needle/seat area and the bowl was bent. Ball seats were pretty worn, threads worn out on adjustment shaft. That keeps them from starting like they should because they suck air instead of fuel. Lots of stuff was bent and out of kilter. New float and needle and seat/arm & etc. Also new fuel inlet that actually fits the 1/2 x 18 thread on the bowl.
The throttle shaft was a "little" worn.
Ready to go back together.
What a jewel! Awesome work my friend!
Danial, We must have been typing at the same time except I was having lunch at the same time, too.
Thanks, I have so much business with old brass ones, I don't have time to do anything else. Right at the moment I have carbs from South Africa, Holland, New Zealand, Canada, England & Germany as well as the US. Better get back to the shop and get after them.
If you want to see some more recent ones, http://strombergof.com/More_Recent_Rebuilds.php
Off I go.......................
Stan's work is absolutely first class. He is a pleasure to work with and the high quality of his restoration work shows in the photos above. The 5-Ball will be mated to engine 2840 in our 1909 touring. Thanks again, Stan.
Stan has done a carb for me and it is not only a work of art but runs great!
When they shipped you that carb in all those pieces did you get to keep the bushel basket?
I wasn't in pieces, Dennis, I just didn't take a pic of it before I took it apart. Or did I? Nah, I usually don't take before and after pics unless there is complicated linkage or something I might not be able to remember. Those 5 balls are all about the same, just have to remember where to put the fuel inlet and the air tube.
I just happened to think that I did take a picture when I got it.
Stan, did you make the float height adjustable? Been my experience with 5 balls that float height is critical. In the past, I've sometimes had to sculpt out part of the float or add shims where the arm attaches to get them to run right. On Russ Potter's 5 balls he uses a grose jet with a screw on top of the arm that can be adjusted so it hits the ball in the gross jet at whatever height you set the screw. If you didn't make it adjustable, did you have fun getting the float the right height?
I too am impressed with the result. Its beautiful workmanship.
I don't do them the same way Russ does although I think it is just a matter of design taste. I know that his also work fine.
First, I don't like Grose jets because they stick. So I don't use them.
Second, I think the system needs to be designed to pull the needle open rather than relying on pressure from the fuel line to open it. I didn't take many pictures but the way I do it is that the float lowering pulls the needle off the seat to allow fuel to flow when the pressure is very low at the inlet. The arm I make is fairly heavy (.065) brass and is positively connected to the shoulder screw in the needle so the weight of the arm pulls the needle open when the fuel level goes down.
It is adjustable only by where the washer is placed, either above or below the actuating arm. If the washer is below the arm the float level is lower when it shuts the fuel off, if the washer is above the float level is higher.
Other than that, I set the fuel level where the original fuel level was with the Kingston system, which is actually pretty high, and figure it is OK.
I have a plug I put in the bottom of the bowl, then flow fuel in and set the float height and see where it is. It has to be pretty high. Then when I put the bowl on the body of the carb I assume it is right unless there is a problem with it running on the test engine.
This will give you some idea of how I do it, I couldn't find a picture of the whole needle and seat system.
Here is another pic just for fun, this is the new Silicon Bronze adjusting screw. It will outlast all of us.
I make the floats, too, since I haven't found anyplace to buy parts for 5 balls.
Been working on this all week and a good part of last week. It's for a Hupmobile.
Been working on this all week and a good part of last week. It's for a Hupmobile.
Wooo, I've always wondered what was in one of those and what it looked like. Just out of curiosity, what do the balls do or what are they for? What's in the large cylinder that looks like it fits in the bottom of the bowl, is there some sort of gasket on it? It looks to me like that flattened tube with the up turned spout that goes on the bottom of the bowl fits onto the threaded shaft on the bottom of that cylinder...right? Is that cylinder some sort of air shaft? I noticed the 4 small holed on that part that bolts to the bottom of the bowl. This is a really interesting piece of engineering...
Good work and knowledge to get these to work well, very important when you want to use the car, but the patina is beautiful.
The balls pull off their seats as the air flow increases with engine speed and lean/adjust the mixture. There is no separate idle circuit so it needs maximum air flow past the main orifice to feed enough fuel for starting and idling.
Once they figured out idle circuits the ball concept pretty much went by the wayside although Mayer used the concept with great success in the twenties.
Starting fuel is accomplished by depressing the float until gas runs out the bottom of the carb. There are 4 small holes in the bottom of the air supply tube that allow excess gas to drain out slowly. In the meantime, the gas in the bottom of the air tube is supposed to evaporate and supply starting fuel until there is air flow enough to draw fuel from the orifice.
One of the things with these is that they usually have a little gas on the bottom of the carb. That's just part of the deal.
The big piece that screws in from the bottom has the fuel orifice and is where the air flows through.
They run surprisingly well if everything is OK. One problem is that the balls seats tend to wear out of round as well as the balls wearing out of round so they don't seal. That makes it harder to draw fuel at cranking or idle speeds. I've had some balls that were out .020 and seats that were worn on the front lip .020. Lots of air gets by those. The adjustment rod also needs to seal.
If you look at this carb and the later and later ones you can see how Henry got the cost down over the years. These took a lot of machining and must have been pretty expensive. He probably wasn't paying thirty cents apiece for NH's. Maybe less.
This is the basic design I use for my needle and seat conversions. This one is for a tiny little 4 ball, it would be different for Kingston T 4 balls & similar to what goes in the 5 balls. I have half a dozen different patterns for Schebler, Kingston, etc.
Ake, most, not all, patina is just dirt but I do really like the patina on this one.
Interesting you find the seats worn out of round. Explains why the earliest 5 balls had removable seat inserts. I guess you grind them to like new using a ball end with fine grit, same diameter as the balls. Makes sense. Most don't go the extra mile to true up the seats, just replace the balls. Good work, I may send one to you.
That carb looks great. And I know from experience they work as good as they look.
Off topic here, but my refers to me as her "arm candy"!!
Thanks, guys. Les if she was on my arm she'd be MY arm candy but you her "arm candy." That's something no woman has ever called me and I'll guarantee you I've been called most things women can think of -- especially is they are mad about something. Let me tell you about Madeline.......................... Some other time.
Lemme jis rewrite that and see if it makes better sense.
Les, if she was on your arm she'd be YOUR "Arm Candy," but you HER "Arm Candy????" I dunno. Might be a stretch............. =)
Are you in Mexico or Calgary????????
Stan, I noticed that the big piece on the bottom has threads...is there some sort of cap that goes on there? If that's the air intake, is there an air cleaner or heat pipe that goes there?
If gas is "just part of the deal" on the bottom of one of these, then I guess there is no gasket between that air cylinder and the bowl (even though it seems that there should be)?
That little lever looking gadget behind the ball assembly on top of the bowl cover part of the carb...that's a priming lever right? I noticed it has a loop on it, is that for some kind of handle?
Martin, there is a gasket to seal between the bowl and the venturi tube.
There are threads in the inlet because at least early on they came with a spark arrester/bug screen that screwed in there. It is just a 1 inch x 32 TPI thread, they are pretty easy to make. I have 1 x 32 taps and dies.
The little lever looking gadget is the priming lever. I don't know for sure what was hooked to it. Probably a priming wire that went out the front by the radiator, the same as the later choke rod.
The difference between the early and late 5 ball is the choke in the intake. They added that in 1910. This is the earliest one I have worked on, at least the earliest T one. I've done a couple others that have the choke in the air intake.
I also have a Buffalo that was used in early production on the 09 that I will be doing next month. I'll post some pics of that when I get it done.
Just got my Zenith S4BF installing in my 1926 Tudor car. Stan Howe rebuild it. All's I can say is WOW!!! I plan to start it up after my vacation to Arizona in late April.
Stan, what's it look like without the bowl on? Do you have a picture of it that way? I'm just wondering what's below (a straight on side view both front and side would do)...is there some sort of stem that fits into the cylinder that runs up from the bottom of the bowl or is this just hole and there is nothing down there at all?
Stan, also is there a spring inside the primer to keep it in the up position? Can't imagine it just resting on top of the float.
I'm also wondering about the mixture needle...it must seat someplace...is there some sort of screw in valve seat that goes in the bottom? I'm thinking it's that domed looking piece next to the primer assembly in the picture of all the parts.
There is a cross bar cast into the venturi that has a replaceable seat screwed in to it. The tip of the adjustment needle fits into that seat. I don't have a photo that shows it.
The seat isn't in any of the photos. I'd probably already installed it in the venturi by the time I took the pictures.
Yes, there is a spring inside the primer.
Stan, Stan, Stan...**put back of hand to forehead and staple** Oh woe is me, you're making it really hard on a poor old artist, lol. I've been after details concerning the 4 and 5 ball Kingston's for quite a while now and then you post all these lovely pictures of this unique device and not have a bottom picture? **heavy sigh**
The truth is, I really can't show the bottom clearly on a 2D version on the 3D version, I can (that'll have to wait), but what goes onto or into it...if I have to guess I'll probably get it wrong...soooo, I guess I'll draw what I can and wait until I see something that shows this more clearly.
By the way, are the balls all the same size and weight? or do they vary for different engine speeds? And is there a certain order that they're installed?
Martin...here are some additional pictures of the 5-ball carb that Stan restored for us. I haven't put it on the car yet, so I was able to take a few more close-up shots for you, including the bottom. Cheers.
Mike, nice pictures, they'll come in handy when I model those parts, but I want to see the bottom with the bowl and air pipe off...The needle/mixture seat is somewhere on the bottom and I need to see how that assembly (needle & seat) fit together. I know from what Stan as has that the needle screws in from the top and the seat screws into the bottom, but what it looks like or just where it screws in, I'm not sure...if you could or would be willing to take the bowl off and take a picture of what's under it, I'd appreciate it.
Also does anybody know what the flow of this carb is? how and where the fuel and air travel?
Martin, I'm off on other business this week. When I get back I can take some pictures of the inside of a 5 ball, 4 ball, whatever you want so you can do some drawings of them. I have several 5 ball carbs in stock; just none with the correct flange for the T manifold. They are all the same internally, just different sizes. I never thought about you wanting photos so you could do drawings of them.
The balls are all the same size in each carb. They range from 5/16 in the small carbs to 1/2 in some of the big ones.
I am so backlogged on work all the time I don't take pictures of hardly anything I do anymore as there is always another carb wating to go on the bench and most days I spend as many hours as I can standing in front of the bench and the lathes and the mill working on them. Right now I have carbs from everywhere from New Zealand to Holland and South Africa waiting. I also have a couple other businesses and am still playing music some weekends so my days are pretty full. Not the bank account, just the days. I just took some shots of this to put on the web site and show some of the parts I make. I should have taken pics of the throttle shaft, etc. too, but I didn't.
Stan, we're in the same boat on the bank account, lol. But I'm interested in any and all of the carburetors from your web pages (2010, 2012 and the current one). I copy the pictures, put them in a file labeled with they type and year, hoping to find more on them. When I have enough I draw them, but outside pictures aren't enough, I need details of the parts. Currently I'm only doing 2D...but I've been working on my L-4 in 3D. I'd like to be able do them all in 3D and put them out in an animated PDF format for download...but like I said, the bank account is a wee bit lean for that just now, lol.
Hey, if you have any of the Rayfields, Strombergs, or Schebler's apart on your bench and you just happen to have a camera handy...well you know, lol.
How do you get them so nice and clean? My 5 ball is a little tarnished but otherwise ok.
How can I get mine to look like that?
The serial number on my 4 ball carb is 90355. Does anyone know how serial numbers relate to years of manufacture?
Robbie, Wax on, Wax off, and a lot of greasy elbowing!
Mine is not that bad. It has not been used since potter rebuilt it years ago. I just need to refresh it a little bit.
Robbie, I'd imagine you'd have to take it apart first and then either put it in wheelabrator (although that might be too abrasive) or an ultrasonic cleaner spiked with parts dip. I did that on my L-4 and it came out looking really shiny.
Wish I had a mill and a lathe right to hand, I'd make my L-4 into a L-4K pretty quick.
I don't put anything on them and I don't buff anything unless somebody is paying for show polish. I bead blast with the finest bead available and very seldom change it until it gets all greasy and dirty and leaves a mess on the parts. I wire brush with a .006 stainless steel wire brush running 3450. The trick is the fine wire and being stainless steel. I also have very fine drum sanders, starting with 220 grit and wearing down until there is pretty much no cut left to them.
I bought an ultrasonic cleaner last year, paid $700 for it and it was a waste of money. I can't get it to clean anything. It's heated and the whole deal. Bought a $100 jug of chemical for it. Worthless waste of time and money.
Martin, I will try to take some pics for you of some different stuff for you to draw.
Stan, I've found that the best solution to use in ultrasonic cleaners (depending on what you're trying to clean or course) is 3-1 mix of 409 and water. The detergent in the 409 takes out most greases and oils with no problem...you might even try Dawn dish soap in a 3 to 1 mix also...works just as well. MEK, Acetone and other solutions, just don't make it (despite what they say, they leave a residue). Parts dip works pretty well, but you have to watch temp temp. Also brass shell casing solutions from gun shops works well (and it's cheap). Never use anything like Tarn-ex or other precious metal cleaners in an untrasonic...they're fine for jewelry, but not cleaning carburetors or clocks (don't ask me how I know about clock parts, lol, what a disaster that was!)
I have a heated ultrasonic parts cleaner. The wash they sell for them is no good and pricey. I haven't experimented with it much but it does a good job on what I have done.