OT - a few early car and Rolls Royce questions......

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - a few early car and Rolls Royce questions......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 10:20 pm:

Is anyone familiar with Phosphor Bronze main crankshaft bearings? How would they compare with babbitt bearings? Any idea how late they were used by car makers?

Also, I'm trying to find out specifications and number of cars produced by Rolls Royce in 1907 and 08. The total produced between 1907 and 1926, but I can't seem to find a year by year total. Specifications I'm looking foe include crankshaft main bearing size, warranty, frame dimensions (depth, type of steel, thickness) and any other specs. Surprisingly, this info doesn't seem to be readily available.

Thanks for any help,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 10:23 pm:

Above should have said "I have the number (RR) produced between 1907 and 1926, but can't find a year by year total for 1907 and/or 1908."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - 11:59 pm:

are you working on a rolls?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dane Hawley Near Melbourne Australia on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 04:44 am:

You might get some info from here-
http://www.rroc.org/

or here-
http://www.rrbew.co.uk/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 06:05 am:

Rob,

I'm far from a Rolls expert but I believe that would be all Silver Ghost production.? Don't forget the Springfield Mass. Built cars in the total #.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 06:20 am:

Here is a recent thread on bronze main bearings:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/407794.html?1387031859

Here's what David Greenlees wrote: "I have seen this tried in several pre-1910 engines from the factory when they were new and they all suffered from extreme wear to the crank and bearings. Don't try it.

It appears to be caused by two things: Dirt that gets in between the bearings and the crank wears both. With soft babbitt it gets embedded into it and does much less harm. The surface speed is to high for bronze. It will work fine for cam bearings but they only travel at half the speed."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 07:16 am:

Nathan, no, just comparing several cars for newsletter article (Early Ford Registry) and hoped to list all six cylinder carmakers production numbers, along with some specifications.

Larry, yes, RR and the Silver Ghost were at the other end of the spectrum from Ford and the Model T. Rolls made the "Ghost" from 1907-1926, selling just over 7,000 cars(?) during almost the same time Ford sold over 15 million Ts.

Dane and Roger, thank you,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 07:40 am:

Roger (and all),
I was reading the bronze main thread (link you posted, thanks) and it calls it "white bronze". This is "phosphor bronze" (car I'm looking at specs of). Does anyone have any idea what the difference may be, and if this would be a good (or bad) material for main bearings?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Evan Mason on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 10:17 am:

Rob,

Do not limit your Rolls Royce figures to the Silver Ghost. The New Phantom was first delivered in May 1925. Also Rolls Royce made smaller cars(the 30) than the Ghost and Phantom (the40/50).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 10:34 am:

Evan,

Thank you. I'm doing a comparison of six cylinder cars, contrasting features and sales of our "lowly" 1906-1908 Ford six (Model K) with the top end six cylinder cars of the day, the 1907/08 Pierce Arrow (recognized as the top American made six) and Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, probably the top six cylinder car in the world as of 1907/08.

As the article below mentions (highlight) the U.S. had it's own version of a six cylinder "ghost."

:-)



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 11:21 am:

Evan,

Thank you.
I forgot the Phantom I was available in '25 at the tail end of the Ghost production.

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

Rob, "White Bronze" is actually not bronze, but an alloy of varying amounts of copper, tin, and zinc much like Babbit.

"Parson's White Bronze" was used for main and rod bearings in a number of early engines

"Phosphor bronze" has much more copper in along with some tin. It is a harder wearing material but is not a good choice for engine bearings other than wrist pin bearings.




More info @ http://books.google.com/books?id=RxNDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=%22parson's+white+bronze%22&source=bl&ots=9aSUrBMh-A&sig=zANBDAqRlH2hF73OHaKZIrrlBqk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Vo_qUrr6GdOwsQSJyYDIDA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22parson's%20white%20bronze%22&f=false


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 03:34 pm:

When I first saw the title of this post I thought Rob was looking for some help from Royce. Just about spilled my coffee all over my lap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 05:00 pm:

I think the Maytag one cylinder gasoline engine ran on bronze bearings. I know the connecting rod was bronze and I think I remember looking inside the crank journals and seeing bronze. The crankshaft in these engine fared quite well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Sumerall - Athens, AL on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 06:04 pm:

According to an Automobile Quarterly article I have, it says that between 1904 and March 16, 1906 RR produced 16 10hp 2 cylinder cars, 6 15hp 3 cylinder cars, 40 20hp 4 cylinder cars and 37 30hp 6 cylinder cars. That is a little before the time period you specified but I though you might find it interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 06:19 pm:

Mike,

Yes, that's great to know. I've had no luck getting a breakdown on 07 and 08. I have not included the 06 RR in my data collection, but will now.

Thank you!

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 07:02 pm:

Dave,Now that's funny!!!!!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 10:58 pm:

Dave and Bud,

I caught it too. I wish Royce or anyone else had more info on RR. I'm surprised such a well known marquee doesn't have more info available. I emailed the RR club, so maybe will receive something from them.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 11:46 am:

Rob, I suspect RR owners may be of the Luddite persuasion and not entrust their knowledge to this internet thing. If you get hold of the book The Edwardian Rolls-Royce by John Fasal, it will undoubtedly have everything you need, but secondhand copies sell for about $800, so you need to be seriously interested in the subject.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 12:12 pm:

Jem,

It seems to be a little more closed group than ours (Model T). I tried to get on the RR forum site, however one must own a RR and be a club member to post, according to the rejection email I received.

I'll find what I need regardless,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Hi Rob, I can probably help here as I'm a member of the RROC. Without spending a lot of time "digging" I'll give you the info. from our club Register and Directory. 1905/6 (does that mean 1905 or 06?) 1 car produced, SN 26355. 1906/07, 11 cars, SNs 60500-60511. 1907, 53 cars, SNs 60539-60592. 1907/8, 99 cars, SNs 60700-60799. 1908/9, 96 cars, SNs 919-1015. These are all 6 cyl. cars. Let me know if you need more. Rob keep up the history work, I love it.

Ed aka#4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 01:54 am:

Rolls Royce cars are extremely documented--however their books are (usually) quite expensive, and mostly (by now) out-of-print. Some 34 to 24 years ago I worked on them for a fairly wealthy gentleman (part of the Gillette razor fortunes)and the car I was initially hired to work on was an American RR P-1 built 1927, first sold in 1929--to the president of the Warford Transmission Co (Model T tie-in).
Now, memory is fading, but I believe that engine had Babbitt bearings; but I also worked on a late 30s Bentley that had "white metal" bearings. As I recall, that engine had larger bearing clearances (like 3 thous.). BTW, the radiator shell, and almost all the bright work on the RR-P1 was "German Silver"--oh, and the radiator shell was actually the radiator--much like the pre-17 T radiator--except that the tank panels were carefully mitered, so the solder didn't show, and the edges were sharp.
The engine components on all these engines were works of art-almost all surfaces polished. The cranks had hollow journals, with tapered plugs sealing the ends and drilled throws, thus providing full pressure oiling--and one had to pre-test the crank with oil pressure to make certain they didn't leak. Each journal cap bolt was cotter pinned too. Many of the bolts holing frame and other components together were slightly tapered to insure a completely tight fit.
Can't believe how long ago that was, and what I would naively waltz into--and usually succeed at fixing.
David D.
PS Many of the RR folks were, um, unique (eccentric?) but also fun to be around (although my wife felt pretty uncomfortable rubbing shoulders with such a wealthy crowd--She's got no worries on that part with me!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 02:51 am:

David, It seems that we travelled in parallel universes back in the 1970's. I too worked for a rich owner of Rolls Royce and Bentleys, actually he collected anything pre 1930 except Fords. It was great o be able find a Model T part such as an early Jones speedometer in his stash of parts and be told to get that Ford part out of the garage.

Not only were bolts as you described but RR produced their own bolts which had square heads and each corner under the head had pointed corners which prevented them from turning. Great cars to work on especially the early ghosts. We had quite a few 1908 to 1912 Ghosts in the garage including a tourer the same as the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost the factory owns. It had on it the original trembler coil box from that Rolls. At some stage in its early life both cars were in the RR work shop and it was changed to the other car. Rolls Royce tried several times to get the coil box back, even offering to swap a new RR for it but the owner refused.

It always amasses me that people want to remove copper piping from their cars as they might fracture yet RR and Bentley used yards of it on all their cars way into the 1930's and it never appeared to be a problem.

As I only had a Model T, I was given a 1911 Ghost to restore and use in the 1970 International Rally held in Australia which my boss was the director of. It stared as the remains of a chassis which had the frame cut in half. A body which the owner had stored in a crate which came from England was mounted on the frame and as every color that was around was on cars already in the stable I painted it deep Purple, it went well with the brass on the car.

This is a picture of the car taken on the 1970 Rally, that's the wife holding up the side. The RR was nick named the "Munster"

|image{munster}


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 02:52 am:

munster

Messed that up


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 03:53 am:

Your right Rob, not a lot of info, I have a book on Rolls but not a lot of numbers etc, in 1906 the 30HP broke 3 cranks in test runs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 09:45 am:

Wow guys, thank you!

Ed, is there a chance the RR club has an estimate of 1906,07 and 08 cars existing now? Also, any breakdown between 30 hp and 40-50 hp six cylinder cars? I believe the 30 hp was still sold in 07?

Following are some of the "blanks" I'm trying to fill in:
(Some boxes may not be correct)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Archer on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 05:45 pm:

The 30 HP RR was mfg. between 1905-06. The 40/50 from late 1906 on. There may have been a few 30 hp. models sold in 07. So prior to SN. 60539 on my previous list they would have been 30 hp. cars. And doing a little more research you can revise my previous number of 30 hp. cars mfg. to 46. They consist of SNs. 23927, 24274, 24275, 26355, 26370-23675, 60500-60538. 26355 is the only known survivor of that group. The only other survivor rate I can give you is those that are RROC members. There are two 07s and three 09s listed in the current roster. I know there are a lot more than those that exist, they're just not currently members of the RROC. I can probably fill in a few more of your blank areas but it'll have to be another time. I'm out!

Ed aka#4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 08:21 pm:

Peter,
More parallels than you realize--that American P-1 had been cut in half too! Long story about how that happened, and how my predecessor assisted the "new" owner in uncovering the parts of the car scattered over a large ranch in the mountains near here. Found things like the side curtains in one barn, rear end of frame & rear axle in a gulley, etc. etc.
I assume the car is now finished, my guy passed away before the car was done--the chassis was all done, it needed body & fender work still (LOTS of it!( Hmm, somewhere I have pictures I should scan in.) The car was sold off "as is" by the estate (along with a P-3, and others).
T'ake care!
David


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