Terminal block

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Terminal block
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 05:14 pm:

Looking for a photo of an early 1919 terminal block, the one with 5 terminals and rounded ends. I need make one. I have the imprint on my firewall for the overall dimensions and have spoken with Larry Smith who provide much needed information, but I still need to see a photo of one. I looked in all the books I have and have researched this site without success. I would grateful if someone could provide me with a photo. Any information would be helpful really.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Sundstrom on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 06:36 pm:

Hope This helps. Measured mine and this is what I have (1920)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 07:13 pm:

You can make one or buy from Lang's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 08:54 pm:

I think Bob Bergstadt may have them NOS.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

Thank you, Mark, but the one I am building is not the same as the one Lang's offers. As you can see from the photo, the terminal for my car has round corners. Although Langs is also a 5 terminal block, the shape and mounting style are different.
Although not the same as yours, John, the dimensions you provided are a big help, especially the screw spacing and shape and dimension of the dividers. A big difference between yours and mine is that on mine the wood screws that hold the wires do not extend into the firewall. Two long wood screws on the ends of the terminal do, but the terminal screws do not. Consequently the thickness of the block must be a bit more than 1/2" at the thinnest part to accommodate the no 9 x 1/2" screws. Thanks for taking the time to help. If you need some extra terminal screws, I just bought a box as they are very hard to find. Just ask and I'll send some to you.
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, January 30, 2014 - 11:56 pm:

Richard:

I think your block outline looks like it might have been one of the very early ones. They were indeed rounded at the corners and see if these dimensions match. Over all length from left end of rounded end to right end of rounded end would be exactly 4" while the height of the thing would be 7/8". The hole centers for mounting would be 5/16 in from each end thus 3-3/8" on mounting centers and the holes in the block at the ends for mounting were 3/16 dia.. It was made from FORDITE and had hex brass inserts in the molding that were 3/8" across the flats and those were on 9/16 centers. They were 10-24 threaded inserts. I don't have one here but I do have the drawings for the February 1919 version of the block. If you really want to get industrious you might be able to make up a mold and cast yourself one out of some casting resin or something. The brass inserts were 5/16 long and the block was basically 5/16 thick at the points were the inserts were and the barriers between the connections extended another 1/8 out from the firewall making the overall max thickness of the block = 7/16 at the thickest point being the 4 ribs which were 1/8 thick. The ribs were 5/8 tall at their maximum protrusion and then angled back at the top and bottom to a height of 3/4 where the ribs met the 5/16 thick back portion. I don't know if you can follow my notation. The drawing is in very poor condition and difficult to read.

The following changes occurred later. Original block was adopted on 2/5/19 as described above.

on 2/15/19 the terminal distance was changed from 9/16 to 19/32 and the end holes to the first terminal then was changed from 9/16 to 1/2".

3/3/19 Ribs were modified to extend to the outside of the block rather than to 3/4" long. Also called for ends of ribs to be rounded with 3/8" radius

And only 3 days later....

3/6/19 changed shape of ribs from 3/8 radius to flat on top to be a 13/16 true radius with height of rib to remain the same. This change made for convenience in manufacturing.

And only 9 days after that....

3/14/19 changed thickness of the basic body from 5/16" to 1/4" and also brought the drawing up to date by specifying the brass insert threads to be 10-32 rather than 10-24.

JFR note:

It may be that they never actually used 10-24 threaded inserts but rather were always 10-32 which is a more common thread for electrical connections.

The next change doesn't happen until 10/7/21 at which time the part was already for repairs since it was used from 1919-1920 only it would seem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 10:37 am:

Absolutely great information, John. Just what I needed. I am surprised to see it uses threaded inserts and is so thin. I have some thoughts about using threaded T nut inserts (McMaster Carr)with machined Delrin to see if it can be done. If that won't work I may try to mold a piece from epoxy with the nuts in place and machine the piece to the correct dimensions. Actually the more I write about it, the more I think that's probably the better way to go.
Interesting to me that tracing the evolution, the type on John Sundrom's car looks to be a simplification of the rounded type. Ford cut away the rounded ends, substituting wood screws for the machine screws and inserts. The wood screws served two purposes, holding the wire clips and securing the terminal block to the firewall. Mr. El Cheapo himself. Oh, I found a photo in McCalley's Model T Ford at page 278. Don't know how I missed it the first time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 11:35 am:

Ouch, $17 (Lang's) for a wood terminal block I could make myself?

The pic shows one I knocked out in about 10 minutes at a total cost of less than a buck. (scrap wood and brass screws from the hardware store.



I was in a rush and made no attempt to copy the original (that would have taken another 5 minutes). I used maple (from an old water ski) but oak would have been better.

The first attempt was to rout out the grooves but the dividers were too delicate and split off. The second one was just a flat piece of wood with the dividers glued on. (same way the one sold by Lang's is made). Someday when I have more time I'll do it right(er)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 11:36 am:

PS

John - thanks for that drawing !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 11:39 am:

Try you hand at a mold. There are some pouring compounds and if you have any machine ability all you have to do is take some 3/8 brass hex stock and drill and thread it to 10-32 thread all the way through. Then before slicing it off in 5/16 lengths, put a groove around its perimeter for the casting compound to fill in and grab onto the piece with. A 7/8 wide by 4" long mold with rounded ends shouldn't be too difficult to make and you can drill 5 holes in the bottom of it to slip some temporary 10-32 screws through to hold the 5 brass hex pieces in place. Fill that mold with casting resin of some sort to full thickness that is 7/16 deep over all and then machine out the ends and bolt channels to reveal the ribs and you have it done. A bit of work with a file or radius tool on a wood router table and you should have a perfect item.

10-32 T nuts are going to have way too big of a back end to be useful when mounting on 9/16 centers and they don't come in brass. You really do want to make the inserts out of brass since otherwise they will rust in no time.

Sounds easy from where I sit but that is because I don't have to do it all ha ha :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 11:43 am:

Richard:

In you picture below the terminal block and below that large hole that is below the terminal block you will see 2 holes separated by about 3-1/8" They appear to have held something with square cornered bracket. I think your car likely had a power resistor there for light dimming. Ford actually did that for awhile. I have seen the factory drawing on that resistor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 12:45 pm:

Here are drawing of what was likely on my Aug 1919 car. Just in case someone is interested.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 12:49 pm:

One more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 01:16 pm:

Sounds like a good way to go John. I was initially thinking of carving out the piece from Delrin and inserting T nuts but that presents its own problems, specifically the barbs on the nuts would likely split a 1/4" block.
Anticipating what I would need before you provided the information, I purchased some Delrin and a gross of no. 9 by 1/2" round slotted blued wood screws. If anyone needs some for their car or a project, let me know. Ihave a couple guys interested now, so I can't let go of all of them, but if anyone wants to replace theirs on a later terminal, I'll send them gratis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 07:18 pm:

What is the manufacture date of your car Richard? If you don't know for sure then what is the motor number of it? I think you might have some details wrong on your drawing but it depends on the manufacture date. No point in going to all the trouble of making one and then get wrong dimensions to start with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:00 pm:

What size are brass thumb nuts available in.? They could be cast into your mold. If they are too big to fit the spacing a person could grind off opposite sides a little to give some room. I have some for old spark plugs that I think are the right thread. Should be able to get them at the hardware store. Just a thought .... good luck ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:18 pm:

John, the engine date is 8-28-19 and the no. is 3351482. Donnie, the 10-32 brass nuts are available 3/8" wide but you'd have to stack them to get them deep enough. I ordered some brass hex stock to make them the right dimension. Looking online, I don't think I will proceed with the mold method. Too darn expensive for one piece. I will try to machine the delrin to the right shape and drill holes to place the inserts in the block from the back side. I 'll secure them with pins and epoxy.
I'll probably leave 1/16" delrin in the front of the hole for looks and drill and rap thru it for the machine screw. All this so the nut won't be visible from the front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 10:04 pm:

Richard: you must not have a proper 7/8 circle template to come up with that flat spot in the middle! Use a compass, or a circle template with a 7/8 hole in it, that way you will get the correct radius!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 12:18 am:

Richard

The hex nuts were very visible from the front. What held them in the Fordite was a 1/16" wide x 1/16 deep groove around the center of the perimeter. IN the first design then there was a 1/8" wide area front and back that was full 3/8" hex with this groove then cut into it. They are made from hex stock as your ordered. They are then drilled and tapped for 10-32 but then a cutoff tool or something else made a groove in the side of it part way into the brass and then the final length part is cutoff. This groove in the side was held by the Fordite as it cured. There are probably ways to make it look right but if possible the hex brass insert should show itself sticking out of the plastic since on the drawing it shows the 5/16 long brass insert to be flush front and back with the 5/16 body. The record of changes also initially called out that the brass insert should stick out 1/32 beyond the Fordite???. That requirement was dropped later and before the body was reduced to 1/4 thick from the 5/16. Yes I agree now that your drawing is basically what it should look like with of course the ends being completely round as Larry pointed out and the radius of the curvature on the ribs is the 13/16 true radius that the changes spoke of.

The brass insert itself had a separate Ford factory number but I don't have that drawing but it is very detailed in the terminal block drawing that I do have so I don't think it is really needed here anyway.

Good luck with your project and post us a picture of the final item.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 09:51 am:

Good info John, I was concerned about the appearance of the hex nut. Glad to hear it was exposed. It will be easier to make.I will groove the nut as you suggest. Larry, the template I used doesn't have the correct radius and I don't have a compass, but I am aware the radius should be half the thickness of the piece, or 7/16". I'll post a photo or two when I finish it. Still waiting for some material to arrive before I start. Probably after Super Bowl Sunday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 10:41 am:

Richard:

One of the quick ways to make the plastic part is to make a digital CAD drawing on paper using a laser printer plotted 1:1. Spray some 3M spray adhesive on the plastic and back of the paper and simply slap them together. Then go to your nearest sander with a disc sander on it and sand up to the line on the paper and plastic combo. You can make some very accurate one off parts that way. When done you heat the paper a bit with a heat gun and it will peel right off. Wipe off the glue residue with paint thinner (lacquer thinner CAN be used but you need to be very careful since lacquer thinner will attack the plastic aggressively).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:27 am:

Richard, Here is a link to the brass inserts available thru McMaster-Carr.

The "heat set inserts" might be just what the Dr ordered if you plan on making your terminal block from solid stock...

http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-threaded-inserts/=qi7s7o


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 11:29 am:

When you click on the link, you will have to scroll down the menu on the left and select "Brass" as your material type...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 12:34 pm:

Since I will be using solid delrin rather than making a mold, threaded Inserts are the way to go. I've used solid inserts a lot in the past. Don't know why I didn't think of that.
I do have the drill size for the brass inserts MMC offers, but I don't know the outside threads and MMC doesn't give that info. If I had the right tap I'd go for it. But MMC wants $140 for the installation tools. I'll check around for other inserts. Since I already have the brass hex stock, I will try making one with that first.
Great idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 02:05 pm:

Richard
If your using Delrin to fab the terminal blocks try thinwall thread repair inserts with locking "kees". You will need the appropriate sized tap drill and the tap, screw in the threaded insets and lock the "kees"(no special tools required. As you know Delrin is easy to drill and tap the the "kee" locks will bite into the Delrin holding them. You will not be tightening the screws down very tightly so this would work well.
Cheap and easy.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Saturday, February 01, 2014 - 04:05 pm:

Good choice, Ron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 12:33 am:

Richard
Here are some ideas for the inserts using Delrin for the block.

A. Counter bore the back of the block just smaller than a 10-32 nut and press fit the nut in the hole.

B. Thread the back of the block 1/4-20 or 1/4-24 and make an insert from a 1/4 inch brass screw.

C. Counter bore the back of the block just larger than a 10-32 nut, Add some under cut key slots to the bores using a Dremel and epoxy the nuts in place with JB Weld.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Sunday, February 02, 2014 - 09:04 am:

Yes, Art I was thinking about adding pins and epoxy to hold everything in place. Actually the epoxy alone should be good enough since it will prevent the nut from turning by filling the crescents above the flats. There wont be much, if any, forward pressure. A groove cut into the nut as John suggests would help there. I don't think its necessary to fill the back of the threaded hole, at least from a functional standpoint. If I am missing something, enlighten me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 01:18 am:

Richard
Sounds good.
I think the flats on the nuts will be enough to lock against the Epoxy. To keep the nut from turning in the part I was suggesting possibly adding some notches or small pockets to the counter bore in the Delrin part to lock the Epoxy in place since the Epoxy will not bond well to Delrin by itself.

Also, if making a part or a small number of parts out of Delrin is feasible, that would preferable to casting them out of Epoxy. My experience is there is a lot to learn about how to get a good cast part without air pockets, voids and a good surface finish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 12:41 pm:

Didn't think of epoxy not adhering well to the delrin, Art. Doing something to lock the epoxy to the delrin is a good idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 03, 2014 - 01:40 pm:

I would just drill, tap & heli-coil the Delrin.

The exposed hex end would not show but then, does it show anyway when the wires are installed? If so, maybe some thin dummy hex washers could be put in place before the wires are screwed down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Art Wilson on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 12:14 am:

Richard
If you are going to counter bore the back side of the block for a nut be careful the drill does not grab and self feed all the way through. This can easily happen if there is already a hole on the part for the screw. I like to clamp the part to the table and limit the distance the drill can be fed into the part.

I looked up the properties for Delrin and found it melts at about 350 degrees F. Maybe the nut could be melted into a smaller counter bore using a soldering iron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 10:25 am:

I have some extra delrin, may try these ideas. All are good suggestions.
The reason I decided to go with the hex is because of originality, cost, and with respect to helicoils, the risk of winding out. Very small risk I admit, and could be addressed. With the added concern about the epoxy not adhering well to the delrin, I am beginning to think solid or coiled inserts may have been more practical. I'll see how it goes with the hex nut. I'll post results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 10:33 am:

I have some extra delrin, may try these ideas. All are good suggestions.
The reason I decided to go with the hex is because of originality, cost, and with respect to helicoils, the risk of winding out. Very small risk I admit, and could be addressed. With the added concern about the epoxy not adhering well to the delrin, I am beginning to think solid or coiled inserts may have been more practical. I'll see how it goes with the hex nut. I'll post results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 10:34 am:

Sorry for the double post.


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