Lock washers on main bolts?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Lock washers on main bolts?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 04:35 pm:

Did Henry use lock washers on main bolts?
What do yo do ?
I think I have always used lock on the long bolts
And cotter pins on the short ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 04:57 pm:

That's what was on this last engine I tore down. Check lock washers close to be sure they aren't cracked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:02 pm:

Dean - Did you mean "main bolts" on the entire car, or "main bearing bolts" in the engine?

It's an interesting question, because we sure know that Henry sure used a lot of bolts with castle nuts and cotter pins where it would seem that a lock washer would suffice,....???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:06 pm:

Again, in thinking about it, it might be that metalurgy in the Model "T" era being what it was, lock washers as we know them might not have been as dependable then as the lock washers of today. "Betcha' "George" would have some idea about this sorta' thing,.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:28 pm:

They all were castle nuts with cotter pins originally. But it's a lot easier to use lock washers on the center ones. :-)

I don't see why lock washers wouldn't be just fine on all of them. Isn't that what they did on Model A's? Lock washers with a couple drops of Loctite on the threads would certainly hold them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:34 pm:

Harold
I am referring to the main bearing bolts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 05:52 pm:

Ahhhh,....thanks Dean,.....sorry, didn't mean to clutter up the thread you started. About main bearing bolts/nuts, someplace I think I read about using some sort of self-locking nuts,.....NOT "nylocks", but the all-metal self locking nuts of the aircraft grade. I don't do very well when trying to use the "keywords" feature of this forum, or I'd look for it. I guess my only question would be if that type nut might damage main bearing bolt threads, plus, I believe it's easy to strip the bolt thread by over-torquing, and I'd think that self locking nuts would make it harder to determine how much actual "tightening" torque you'd be applying. I realize the factory never used torque wrenches, just "factory proper" length wrenches for the average man, but I do think it makes sense for us nowadays to use a torque wrench to avoid too much torque and stripping bolts.

Ahhhh shoot! Now that I think about it, what I just said applies to rod bolts,....not sure about mains. Sorry for all my "jabber",.....maybe a bit of it makes sense,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 07:17 pm:

30 foot pounds on a Model T rod bolt and then pull the key hole.

35 Foot Pounds on a Model A and B rod bolt, and pull the key hole.

80 Pounds on Model T-A and B main bolts and pull key hole.

We have used only new lock washers on the front and center main bolts of Model T, A, and B's for over 40 years. We use just cotter pins on the rear.

Ford used only cotter pins on the mains.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 07:38 pm:

Harold,

The split lock washer does not gain it's 'umph' by being one curl of a spring, but rather that the forces have to go through a parallelogram as it flattens...(yawn)

Perhaps Art could contribute from the original invention work done in the 1880's as to how the inventor thought they would/might work...

So, with the 1880's being the birth...any patent would have existed until after the birth of the T...and it probably took a whole generation before folks trusted them.

A 7/16" split lock washer for example generates about 6000# of stretch force with the first 0.001" of crush under the nut due to the way the 'square' isn't really 'square'.

NO absolute guarantee that the bolt won't unscrew itself still like a cotter can't let happen...just says in engineer-speak that there is more preload added via the spiral lock-washer being crushed than a bolt that size can lose in preload relief over time...and so it 'should' stay put.

As to the metallurgy question...With Bessemer Steel used by Ford until the early 20's when Rouge came on line with different furnaces...about the best Ford could do was a Grade 2 for their self made hardware/fastener items. My math says 6,000# on a 7/16" above is based on Grade 5. So... IF Ford would have tried to use split washer prior to the 20's...a 7/16" Grade 2 would have 55/85 of that 6000 = 65% = 3900# Too late at night for me to look-up the preload needed for a 7/16 bolt to stay put...:-):-)

Maybe enough...maybe not. That's why I'm hoping Art could turn up something in patent filings...it just may have been invented for one thing and wound up being used for something else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:04 pm:

I put lock washers on the main bolts of my Montana 500 T motor, and they leaked oil. Somehow the oil would wick up and out through the split in the lock washer. It was the only place that I noticed that leaked oil on that motor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

Lock washers along with leaking oil and can break. Model A's used the same setup, castle nuts and cotter pins on all the main bolts. I use cotter pins and when installing make sure the hole is lined up with the opening then insert the cotter pin so the loop is out and long side on top to the inside, then just upset top leg enough so it doesn't come out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 09:11 pm:

I normally use cotter keys on the exposed bolts, but on my Montana 500 motor all of the hardware was either nickel plated or stainless. I couldn't find 1/2" stainless castle nuts, so I used regular stainless nuts and lock washers.

I think castle nuts and cotter keys are better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 09:51 pm:

Why would Ford have used a lock washer, when they already drilled for a cotter pin? No brainer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 10:04 pm:

a's are known to leak with nut and cotter pin too, so they sell a washer with a neopreme seal around the bolt. a little silly cone works too and you can't see it


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, January 31, 2014 - 10:06 pm:

I worked my fanny off on one engine and even lined up all the cotter pins so they were facing same direction. Once the darned gaskets got to compressing from the vibrations,it leaked like a sieve. Tightening a pan nut was a real pain. Took the pins off and put lock washers on. Easy to re-tighten now. To heck with all the purist stuff. Ok for trailer queens.


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