OT-a little. New Engine Project

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT-a little. New Engine Project
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 08:02 pm:

Finished rebuilding my 1924 Model T Engine. Now onto my next project rebuilding a 1907 Model N Engine. For some reason the parts are harder to find.





(Message edited by admin on February 07, 2014)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Tuesday, February 04, 2014 - 10:50 pm:

Mark I really hate to see a man struggle trying to find parts for an early motor, if there's anything I can do to help, you just let me know... Like buy it, take it off your hands, haul it off for you...ect... Anything to help ease the pain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 02:28 am:

Thanks Steve. If you happen to have an N R S Chassis laying around I will help you out also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 06:49 am:

Mark,

Nice project! If you have time, please take photos etc and if possible include a ruler etc in the background to help judge the size. Be sure to keep track of the nuts & bolts. Some of them are non-standard size etc.

Lang's does have 4 pages of NRS&SR parts in their catalog. And of course the Early Ford Registry at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ has members and contacts for folks with used parts or reproducing new parts. Depending on what your plans are for the engine – replacing the hinged connecting rods with ones that have bolts on both sides of the rod would be a possible upgrade to consider. From memory, those are available new from Floyd Jaehnert, but if not from him, they were advertised within the last 3 or 4 months in the HCCA Gazette etc.

I’m 90% sure we have discussed your engine before – but I didn’t readily find where I filed that information. But the pulley on the end of the crankshaft would indicate that the engine had a Mechanical Oiler that was used on the Model R Runabout, Model S Runabout, or Model S Roadster rather than the Force Feed Oiler that the Model N used. Of course that part could have been replaced sometime in the past as the parts were designed to fit the same engine so they are a bolt on item.

And remember to recalibrate the amount of torque you put on studs and bolts. The aluminum is easy to know it takes less torque but the early cast iron parts probably are not as good a quality as the later Model T blocks.

Good luck with your project and keep up posted.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 07:54 am:

Hey Mark am I seeing it right that the block has a front half and back half that are separate? I haven't gotten to look at an NRS in person before. That's wild.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 11:43 am:

Seth,

Big technical improvement over the individual cylinders of earlier Fords and most other automobiles of the age. Wait until they start casting four cylinders in one piece!

PS: Now you know why the Model T has that big gap between cylinders 2 and 3 for the throttle rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 02:04 pm:

Hap thanks for the info. The crank case serial number is 4058. Shipped March 26 1907 to Northwestern Auto Co. Minneapolis MN. ID # 4131? according to Carl Pate's book.
Seth The engine block is one peace. The piece behind the block is a cut off transmission holder. There are 2 cylinder heads with two pistons each.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 08:02 am:

Seth,

Most of the early cars had the cylinder or the pair of cylinders cast as one piece with the head included as part of the casting. They did not think you could make a good seal and have a removable cylinder head. That is one of the major improvement that the Model T helped to introduce. Ford was the first one to do that on a major scale. Below is from page 138 of Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” and is taken from the oral testimony of Joseph Galamb one of the key men involved in the design of the Model T. [Note that oral history by Joseph Galamb might be on line now? If someone has a link to it please let us know what it is.]





For additional information on that experimental engine please see the postings at:
http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/35597.html?1329156233
It is now on display at the Piquette plant. There are later posting about the engine – but I don’t have them handy at the moment.

On the Model N, R, S, SR and many other cars of the time you could not remove the cylinder head from the cylinder (ok someone could saw it off – but it was not designed to come off). The cylinder assembly would be machined and then probably fitted over the pistons and bolted onto crankcase. The old air cooled VW engines had removable cylinders but they also had removable cylinder head. Below is some information on the 1906-08 N, R, S, & SR engines (basically all the same engine except the N used one style of oiler and the others used a Mechanical Oiler driven off a pulley on the front of the camshaft).







By developing a practical removable head, it allowed Ford to machine the parts (i.e. cylinders, valve guides, valve seats etc at a much lower cost.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 08:46 am:

Thanks for the info Hap, that's really cool. I guess what I was seeing that was throwing me off is that the crank case (PN 412) and cylinder bores (PNs 400 & 401) are separate pieces. I was seeing 400 and 401 like you have as the last photo but didn't realize there was more to the block - I thought the crankcase 412 was more like the oil pan for the T engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 09:35 am:

Mark, eventually Rob Heyen should weigh in here. He's probably got more experience/knowledge working on these early engines than anyone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 09:35 am:

For Seth,

I’m glad that helped. There were so many changes on the early engines. The early Model K engines had square valve tappets, the Model N, R, S, and SR put the Flywheel at the front (better road clearance but it didn’t turn out to be a idea that was continued.) For additional information on the earlier cars as well as the Ts see the sales brochures at: http://www.mtfca.com/books/bookmenu.htm Caution – many times they used the same photo or illustration and just changed the label and/or touched it up a bit for the next year’s or model’s brochure. But still a fun read about the early cars. The best source of information on the 1903-1909 Fords is “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia available from the author at: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ . It has also been in our own MTFCA store at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/pates-early-ford-automotive-encyclopedia-1903-1909 but they have it listed as temporarily unavailable.


For Mark,

Thank you for the additional information. The number on the aluminum crankcase is the car number [it would have also been the number stamped onto the ID Patent Plate that was attached to the wooden heel board just below the seat cushions. And yes 4058 is listed. Because it is such a high number it has to have been a Model N crankcase as the R,S, and SR did not go that high in the serial numbers. Note the number 4131 was the unique number in the Database. Trent (more likely the software program he used) created that number to uniquely identify each entry in the database. Not as important on the high serial number Model N cars, but for the N, R, S, and SR there were four cars that each had the serial number 1 through 2335 or so and the SR continued to 3700 or so. And the same databases also contains the 1903-1909 A through F two cylinder, four cylinder B and T up through 1,119 or so, and the six cylinder cars. They all would have had a 1 through xxx serial number so for the database they needed a unique identifier for each car/entry. So the 4131 is not in the original ledgers and is only the number used by the database to keep track of the record for car # 4058.

I may have looked at your photos and mistakenly thought the camshaft gear was the mechanical oiler pulley. I called the camshaft the crankshaft in that posting – so I must not have had enough coffee when I was typing the posting. In the photo below is that the timing gear with teeth or the pulley for a mechanical oiler on the camshaft? And if that is a gear, did the engine have a pulley on the end of the camshaft that was at the front of the engine?



And in the photo below, is that a “cap” that is closed or is it open on the end to allow the camshaft to stick out beyond the bearing? From the photo it is hard for me to tell, but it looks too short to be the closed one -- but I know you can easily tell which way it really is.



Again, good luck with your rebuild. And do you already have a chassis or are you looking for one for an N, R, S, or SR?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 12:48 pm:

Hap. That is the large cam shaft gear at the rear of the engine. That is the wrong cam shaft bearing it is the open #1261 1/2. Also the exhaust manifold has a threaded hole in the back for the pressure to the oiler. I am looking for a chassis.
Thanks Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 09:01 pm:

Mark,

Thank you for the clarification. I'll keep an eye out for chassis etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Stewart -Calif. on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

Hap
Thanks for keeping an eye out for a Chassis.
Here are a little better pictures I hope.
Mark


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 08:09 am:

Mark,

Thank you for the additional photos. You may be taking them with your phone or on a very low resolution setting on your camera. That does make them easier to post, as you do not need to resize them. But in the case of the photo above it is 48kb or you may be resizing them to a much lower resolution than you have to. You could probably post the same photo at 192 kb and it would be much easier to pick out details and features. For example see how much easier it is to see the details on the experimental engine I posted above. It is still less that 198 or so KB so it will post. You cannot zoom in and read the engine serial number on the picture I posted but on the higher resolution original we can easily zoom in and read the engine number. If you have some 190kb or so higher resolution copies if you would please post and / or send them my way I would appreciate it. One of my long term goals is to add some actual pictures of the Model N,R,S,& SR parts to the Price List of Parts illustrations. I.e. someone could look up part number 414 Crankcase door, and see the original illustration/photo but also see a current photo hopefully with a ruler in the background so they could judge the size better. Not designed with the details to produce the part, but so if you found one at a swap meet you could say, this probably fits a Model N,R,S or SR or it is an inch too large or too small to be the Ford part. And of course the price list of parts only shows some of the parts and only from one angle. Trent has already created an excellent “Finder’s Guide” that has the “Price List of Parts” and where to find the Factory Drawing of the part in the Benson Ford Archives. A wonderful resource, but you would have to order the Factory Drawing and wait for it to arrive. By that time the swap meet would probably be over. And for anyone trying to replicate a part – those drawings provide the details needed to accomplish that. [There is a charge for the drawings but it is well worth it for someone replicating a part or parts.]

So any photos that I could use towards that project would be appreciated.

Like most folks I have several projects on my "to do list" some of which are from the “Honey do list.” I am not hunting for parts (at least not the expensive ones) for the 3rd or 4th project on the list. I'm trying to focus the effort on the #1 and #2 projects until they are finished. But when you are ready to apply some resources towards obtaining the N chassis parts (and the R, S, and SR would work just as well for about 90 percent of the chassis parts) I would recommend posting a wanted ad in the Early Ford Registry Forum and in their newsletter, as well as the HCCA Gazette, AACA, and Hemmings. You may find that it is less expensive to purchase a project than to purchase most of the parts individually. And of course keep an eye on Mark’s Model T Haven as he sometimes brings in N,R, S and SR parts [for a while now he has a flywheel and front axle listed at: http://www.modelthaven.com/parts.html and he may have some other parts not listed or that he knows about.] And if you have not already joined the Early Ford Registry and purchased a copy of “Pate’s Early Ford Automobile Encyclopedia” those would both be excellent steps to take to learn more about the cars and to get to know some of the folks that have them (and parts for them). The Early Ford Registry (a chapter of our MTFCA) web site is at: http://www.earlyfordregistry.com/ . And Carl Pate’s book is available from the author at: http://www.earlyfordcars.info/ it has a wealth of information in the book and even more on the CD that comes with it.

Again thank you for sharing the photos and good luck with your projects.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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