Disaster avoided .... 1927 Sport Touring update

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Disaster avoided .... 1927 Sport Touring update
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 10:54 am:

Well in the the never ending can-O-worms 27 Sport Touring project I decided to check the grease in the steering column before putting the steering wheel back on after painting the car. Something did not feel right. I posted a couple pics of what I found. I do not really know how this could happen. The long pin had somehow cut a longer groove in the brass housing allowing the steering pitman to go past center. It appears to have been that way a long time. What is not real apparent in the pics is that at the end of the original groove is a "ramp" cut by the pin, allowing the pin to ride up and cut the "new" groove. The pin was a nice tight "sliding fit" in the shaft. I had a good 26-27 style column to rebuild, so all it cost me was the price of some new springs for the throttle/spark rods. I do nave an extra 5 to 1 ration shaft and gears now. The gears and shaft in the bad assembly were very good. Ill just replace the long pin with a new one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 10:59 am:

steering groovesteering groove 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 12:28 pm:

Its the steering large pinion gear flange that holds those pins from moving up.




Set of 4-1 gears, note the one on the left is missing its flange, as I removed it from the worn out pinion and mounted it to the NOS 4-1 pinion gear on the right.



4-1 sketch showing the parts in place, see how that flange covers part of the pin end, keeping it in place. Now the only way that pin can move is that the cap is not tight or the screw in the cap was gone, allowing slop to occur. Keep those cases tight!

As for those long pins, they must be a press fit, if any sliding then the pin can move down, all the pins should be tight in the steering column flange. If pins are 'slip' fit, that is too loose. And sometimes the hole in the steering column flange is wallowed out, that is bad, and needs to be fixed too.


Be sure to achieve a tight press fit here


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 01:33 pm:

Donnie,
You indicated that the steering pitman would go past center. You may want to check all components from the steering wheel to the wheel spindles for wear and proper size. If everything is correct in the locked position, the spindle steering arm should hit the axle well before the pitman arm goes over center.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 08:44 pm:

Dan: I looked at my parts today. The 5 to 1 ratio is different than your 4 to 1 ratio. The flange on the 5 to 1 does not cover the pins. I looked thru all my steering parts and all the 26-27 5 to 1 ratios flanges are the same size. Ill post a couple pics of my setup with the parts stamped with the #5 on them to show the pins. Ill also show a pic of both styles that I have. The upper ones in the pic are 4 to 1 ratio and the lower ones are 5 to 1. I am thinking about pressing off the big flange from the 4 to 1 and installing it on the 5 to 1 style. I did not mic. the parts yet to see if they are the same size, but they look like they are. I do not think the larger flange will hurt anything, and will give me peace of mind as to the pins. I wonder why Ford changed the flange on the 26-27 5 to 1 style to not cover the pins ..?? Jim: I have the engine out at this time, so ther is not much to hit. The pitman would hit the frame on the driver side, but it would go almost "full circle" the other way. If you notice the wear pattern on my brass casting above, the pin wore a groove almost "full circle" The strange thing is that it would not lock up when going past center. ?? The only thing I see at this time, that is a concern to me, is the drag link was rubbing on the top of the wishbone. Ill have to wait till I get the engine back in to do a good inspection of the parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Wednesday, February 05, 2014 - 08:46 pm:

steering gearssteering gears 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 03:19 am:

A bit off topic, but not by much. I replaced the pins in my TT and my T coupe with slightly oversize drill rod. I don't recall what the size was, but it was just a few thousands over what was standard. They were a very nice press fit, and took up a bit of play on the gears. Worked for me. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 05:46 am:

Ok, please forgive a newbie question and help me understand this. It appears when one turns the steering wheel, the larger year with the attached flange turns, correct?

Two questions, cuz I have not had mine apart:

1. What is the function of the little gears? As I look as these photos, they just appear to keep the large gear centered and stable. Is the another function?
2. How is the steering rod (correct terminology ?) connected o the large gear? I know I'm missing a major component here - just don't know what it is.

Looking for today's. "a-ha".

Michael


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 10:02 am:

Michael: The steering is a "planetary system" When you turn the center gear (Sun gear)with the steering wheel, it in turn will turn/rotate the 3 small "planet" gears that are attached to the steering shaft by the pins that the "planet gears" spin on. When the "planet gears" are rotating around the "sun gear" the steering shaft is rotating and moving the pitman arm on the other end .... The difference in the amount of teeth on the different gear sets is what gives you the different gear ratios. While you can use the brass top casting on either ratio. the shaft/planets/sun combination must be matched to each other (either 4to1 or 5to1 ratio parts) do not mix the parts up. They are useally marked with the #4 or #5 but not always.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 10:12 am:

Michael: I re-read your post. I think your a-ha is that the three small planet gears are actually part or the steering shaft in function....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 12:11 pm:

Donnie,
Here is a photo that shows what should stop the pitman arm from going over center.
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 12:54 pm:

Jim: Ill look at my parts this afternoon. What parts could be wrong. I remember looking at the spindles and they are correct 26-27 style. I do not know if there is any difference in the spindle arms for 26-27 vs earlier. The drag link has been rubbing on the wishbone for awhile. I had a previous thread about the rubbing of the drag link, There were a few comments about the wishbone being different on 26-27 but nothing conclusive. I do not have the steering column back in the car yet, but before I removed it you could turn the steering till the pitman arm pointed straight up or even past straight up. After the pitman passed the level to the ground point the steering wheel makes the wheels turn the wrong way. All of this was done with the motor out, so the engine may change things some. I did my testing with the wishbone ball held in the general correct position since the engine was gone. The only incorrect part I have found so far is the steering bracket at the bottom of steering shaft that bolts to the frame was not the 26-27 style. It had the earlier style for the late 20s to 25 era bracket. I think they are interchangeable but not year correct. I have a 26-27 style to use. Thanks for the input and photos ..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 01:07 pm:

Donnie,
If your drag link is too long that would allow the pitman are to go over center before the steering arm hits the axle.

Here is a list of lengths:

STEERING CONNECTING ROD
(“Drag Link”)
Factory Number T-289
7-29-12 Riveted rod adopted. Brazing pin holes at various angles.
11-4-12 Pin holes now drilled in the same direction.
1-9-14 Both ends of brazing pins riveted over.
9-19-14 Length of rod changed from 30-11/16” to 30-11/16—30-3/4”. A month later it was changed again to 31.062—31.125”
7-14-16 Ford design with forged end adopted. Earlier type continued in use (supplied by outside firms).
5-8-17 Ford design now used exclusively.
10-2-17 Length changed to 30.938—31.062”.
5-19-19 Length changed to 30.312—30.438”

Factory Number T-289-B
At the introduction of and for the 1926 models, the length was 31.125—31.250”.
10-7-25 Length changed to 30.812—30.875.

From:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/165284.html

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 07:01 pm:

Did a little more checking of parts today. Jim Thanks for the info, some good stuff there. I measured my drag link and it measured just a very little over 30-3/4 inches using a tape measure. That should be the 30.812-30.875 length used after Oct 7 1925 listed above. That would make my drag link correct. I also checked the lower steering brackets. The black one I show in the pics is part #T933, it is the one that was on my car. I think it is for TT trucks.?? I used Gail Roddas parts ID books. It has no felt seal and resembles the one he has shown for the TTs. The other (rusty)one I show a pic of is part #T932C I believe it is 26-27 style. It is also very similar to the one in the book. There are very slight differences. It also has no place for a felt seal and a shorter "snout" where the brass bushing goes. That is the one Im using unless someone thinks Im wrong. Sometimes while comparing the 2 brackets they seem to be the same as to angle and useage, then other times it looks like the angle of the steering shaft hole is different from one to the other ..??? I also tried to switch the washer from a 4to1 pinion to a 5to1 pinion. No luck. They are manufactured differently. The pic shows a 4to1 taken apart. There are three parts, the shaft, a washer, and a coller/bearing. The 5to! would not press apart. After enough pressure I finally tore the washer off and pressed it over the pinion gear. It appears the pinion shaft, gear, and collar/bearing are all machined as one part. The washer must have been assembled over the gear as a cup washer?? and then pressed flat, in a pressing operation.?? I guess all of us with 5to1 ratios have no pin protection. I also received the new pins. I installed the new long pin in the shaft. It went in with a good tight press fit. Im still trying to figure this out. Any imput is appreciated ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 07:04 pm:

steering partssteering parts 2steering parts 3steering parts 4


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 08:12 pm:

The more I look at the brackets the more I think they may both be 26-27. One has a longer "snout" and a reinforcement flange. May have just been a running change. I have looked at about 30 different brackets of different years, I do not think I found two exactly alike. Every one of them had some different details in the castings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 08:16 pm:

The more I look at the brackets the more I think they may both be 26-27. One has a longer "snout" and a reinforcement flange. May have just been a running change. I have looked at about 30 different brackets of different years, I do not think I found two exactly alike. Every one of them had some different details in the castings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By michael grady on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 11:10 pm:

Donnie..

A-ha!

Thank you!

Michael


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration