Smokes at a stoplight

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Smokes at a stoplight
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Saitta on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 05:17 pm:

20W50 oil helped for a bit. I was then told to remove the valve cover and jam some thick felt over the two oil hole drains. Too early to tell, but that seems to stop the smoking. ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 05:20 pm:

Bill,

Sounds as if you have some blow by from the rings.
What's your compression like?

Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 05:27 pm:

My '14 did that and it turned out there were no return holes so I put them in and the smoking stopped. Oil was being sucked up through the valve guides.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 06:06 pm:

It seems to me that putting anything over the drain holes would make the smoking worse. What Val says makes sense. Paul Mikeska had the same experience with his '14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Saitta on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 06:27 pm:

The compression is fine and even. This info was given to me from a man who has worked on Ts for 40+ years. I will give a follow up in a week or so. I need help changing a light bulb, so ---


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 07:34 pm:

Oil could be building up in the gallery since the holes are plugged dropping the level in the sump enough so that it doesn't splash the cylinder walls as much seeming to cure the smoking problem. It's a stretch I know because I'm in agreement that no matter how good your guides are if you flood the valve gallery area in oil you'll blow smoke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, February 06, 2014 - 07:48 pm:

Compression rings can be good but weak oil control rings will let one pump oil at idle. Used to see this a lot on older engines. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin in South Africa on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 02:02 am:

My 13 doesn't have oil return holes in the valve area either. When I stripped the motor down, a lot of black old oil came out of the valve covers...

If I had to sit at a light for a while, she would start to smoke too. I'd have to raise the revs a bit to get her to clear.... and smoke out everyone nearby

Should I drill the holes that Val suggests?

Justin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 02:42 am:

Adding them would be a good idea. Ford added the oil return holes at 10-01-14 according to the encyclopedia: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 07:29 am:

This is 289343 as it came back from Babbitt and boring. I drilled the holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 05:41 pm:

I would drill the holes if you are having a problem but I also have a '12 without the holes and it does not smoke a bit. But, it is a fresh engine rebuilt less than 2,500 miles ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, February 07, 2014 - 11:16 pm:

Add an oil line to the exhaust with a little squeeze bottle full of oil on the other end & place the bottle under/near the drivers seat. When you are not near a stop light you can squeeze the bottle & it will smoke. Problem solved :-) something tells me this is not the solution you were looking for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 12:05 pm:

Anything blocking the oil return holes could cause an oil leak around the valve cover. Those holes were made to drain oil which got drawn up through the valve guides.

As for the smoking, do you know where the smoking comes from? If it is around the breather it would be blowby from the rings. But if it is out of the exhaust pipe it could be either oil burning or too rich a fuel mixture. Or if the engine is cold and you are using coolant in the radiator, a small leak into the cylinders will cause white vapor which will stop after the small amount which leaks when parked is blown out.

Here are some things you can try if the smoke is out of the exhaust. Blue smoke is caused by oil burning. It accumulates when you slow down on compression before the stop and will smoke mostly when you start out again. Or when you go down hill on compression and then give it the gas to go up the next hill. Too rich fuel causes black smoke. You can try turning the fuel mixture screw about 1/4 inch. If that cures it, the problem was a rich fuel mixture. Some carburetors run best at a different setting when going fast than when going slow and you need to keep adjusting the mixture. That is caused by some plugged passages in the carburetor or by improper float bowl setting either by adjustment or a leaky float or float needle. What happens in that case is the float level drops when you are pulling hard or running at high speed, but it raises too high when idling. A carburetor rebuild is needed if that is the case.

Blue smoke out of the exhaust or blow by through the breather can't really be stopped without rebuilding the engine or at least replacing the rings.

Anyway those are some things to think about.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 04:17 pm:

Valve guides would have to be really worn to cause much smoke there. Remember you have no vacuum in the valve chamber because of the opening through the block. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 08:57 am:

I don't know if he has an outside oil line kit installed but is it possible that there could be too much oil in the pan/ piston area? I have read threads where folks are running excessively high oil levels in the sump/tranny area and have smoking issues. If an outside oiler is used, especially the high capacity type that uses a 1/2" tube, could there be so much oil being splashed into the underside of the piston area that the cylinder walls are excessively oiled and the oil control ring can't compensate? Or if the rings are worn, they would pass oil? The original set up only uses the one line and cup inside the engine. I know Henry's design doesn't meet modern standards but it wasn't changed through the entire production so it must have been adequate for the majority of the folks who owned and operated T's. Sometimes the "improvements" offered by aftermarket suppliers then and now serve only to improve the sellers profits and deliver no real benefit to the purchaser. APCO anti rattle springs for example only serve to cover up worn out front end bushings. I'm not saying the outside oil line kits don't help or aren't necessary but can the high capacity versions be too much for the average T that is used for touring and parades? The high capacity might make sense for speedsters /racing but street use may not require it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 09:14 am:

Much oil in the pan/piston area is generally a good thing. The main question is whether the smoking engine has old style piston rings on cast iron pistons? If so, they may be inadequate for handling vast quantities of oil - oil consumption was much higher back in the day than what we are accustomed to nowadays.

New piston rings including more modern oil control rings for cast iron pistons are sold by the vendors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 12:50 pm:

Bill, do you live in WA. or CO.? If so, it seems the car would smoke all the time. (Grin)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 12:07 am:

Stuck rings ?? Had that prob. Removed plugs, table spoon of MMO , just cranked engine over once a day for tree days. Installed plugs ,fired up, smoked for 4/5 minutes. Took 'er for a long drive. No more smoke. Aaron Griffey's fix. Worked like a charm !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 10:25 am:

I'm gathering from this post & pictures that the holes weren't there until about '14 or so and the earliest ones were exposed. (no cover). So why were the holes added seemingly after the covers? I'm thinking to allow some oil mist into the chamber for lubeing. Of course they would act as drains too which would be necessary as you're allowing oil/mist up there by adding the holes.
I recall doing a number of intake valve seal replacement jobs on Ford in-line 6 cyl. engines years back which would smoke because of the rocker shaft lube oil dripping on the valve stems and getting sucked into the engine but that's not Bill's case. Heavier oil slowed the smoke according to his post & that hints at oil control rings. I can't see blocking the holes either. The few I've been into always had some liquid oil sitting on the bottom of the gallery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 01:57 pm:

Some oil gets thrown up through the lifter guides and could be drawn up by vacuum through the valve guides when the car has a closed throttle. If you don't have the drain holes, some oil will leak out around the cover if the cover is not very well sealed. It is also a good idea to make some small drain holes in the lower part of the gasket just above the area where the bottom is sealed. That will allow any oil which gets between the gasket and the cover to drain back into the crankcase. I might be wrong about the causes of oil getting into the valve chamber, but I know that some does.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 03:09 pm:

Ring gap would be my thought, ring wear - Blow By.
pull the pistons, re hone the bores and re ring the pistons...... 0.016" gap works well...... 0.028"and up does not.
David


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