OT - The first Model K in Australia (continued)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - The first Model K in Australia (continued)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 06:46 pm:

This is a continuation (to some degree) to the link pasted in below:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/417939.html?1390445337

John Page emailed the following excerpt from the book, "Ford and Canada, 100 Years Together" by James C. Mays.



I've attempted to email the author, however my email was returned. Following is a portion of a page from a Ford Canada ledger page, showing Model K chassis:



The question I would like answered is, how many Model K were loaded on this ship? Was the Model K the original link referred to (arriving in Australia) just one of several? Mark Herdman, John Stokes, Bob Trevan, (and anyone else), what do you think?

Thank you John Page for finding this,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin Bicknell on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 10:07 pm:

According to the book Ford 100 Years in Canada, in 1906 Ford of Canada produced 101 cars.54 model Cs, 35 model Ns, and 12 Ks.Only 25 of these cars were sold to Canadian customers, the rest were crated up and sent overseas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 11:20 pm:

Rob,

I see that the your attempt to contact the author failed. That is disappointing ! !

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 08, 2014 - 11:48 pm:

John,
I'll try the old fashioned method during the week (phone).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 04:18 am:

Well done =[found] John.

Can anyone tell me what the words are [and what they mean] after CROSSMAN in the cars listed as going to AUSTRALIA ?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 08:53 am:

Bob,
According to this excerpt from the book "American Business Abroad: Ford on Six Continents"
By Mira Wilkins, Frank Ernest Hill,
Crossman and Sielcken were one of the export houses used by Ford and Ford export agent Lockwood:
Page 27
"The ledgers tell us also that Lockwood was exporting Fords to
Australia, Africa, Asia, and Latin America, acting for Canada in the case of British territories, and usually for Detroit in the case oŁ the others. He arranged with various firms to do the shipping—the New York export houses of Crossman & Sielcken for Australia and Latin America, Arkell & Douglas for Africa, Carlonitz & Co. and Frazar & Company for Japan, and Peabody & Company for India."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 03:24 pm:

Hi Rob and All,

I am a little unsure the question you need an answer to.

Were loaded on to which ship? I presume you mean the one referred to in the James May book?

If so, that states that the first Canadian-made cars bound for export from Ford of Canada were loaded on August 2, 1906. I would question the validity of that statement.

First ever? No only but also... what exactly does he mean by "Canadian-made"?

Using your scan above (of the Ford of Canada ledger) we can see that cars numbered 154 to 156 and 204 to 206 were all destined for the Canadian market. Number 207 was entered as 31 May, and destined for Sydney, Australia through the agents Crossman and Sielcken. C & S were, like the other shipping agents, based in New York so the notation NY on the entry doesn't mean the car was loaded in NY.

The American Business Abroad (Ford) source is an excellent one - well researched and part of an academic trilogy on the subject of exactly that, America's business activities overseas. What the book doesn't say, but we do know from other sources, is that Peabody & Son were the agents for New Zealand (as well as India). From your scan you can see evidence of that as car 211 was entered in the ledger in what appears to be a June date.

Question - what is the significance of the date on the left of the ledger? And the one in the centre?

What we also know is that an advertisement inviting folk to inspect the Model K in Wellington appeared here on 1 Nov, 1906. To confuse us more, another reference to the Model K was also made on 1 December 1906, the wording of which suggests that the K was yet to arrive.

I hope I'm not making the waters even murkier?!

Best wishes - John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, February 09, 2014 - 04:19 pm:

John,

Some basic "assumptions" (this may not turn out well). I suspect the date on the left is the date the chassis were built by Ford Motor Company. They are in sequence, and could also be arrival date or ship dates to or arriving at Walkerville?

I have news accounts saying four to as many as eight Model K were turned out per day during this period by Ford Motor Company so it's fathomable that these sequential numbered cars were all built in one day, or shipped on a given day (again, a guess).

The date in the center may be a sales date? Some of the dates are not filled in, and those that are have a wide date range, June 12 1906 through March 1907, and in no particular order.

Another reason they may be daily output is because Ford Motor Company records indicate 301 Model K were sold by Oct 1, 1906 (Ford financial records) and Trent Boggess ledger research tells us number 348 was turned out by October 1906, agreeing with other accounts that say Ford sold 300 Model K by October, and other reports saying as many as 350 were turned out through October 1906.

If there is some evidence to back up this passage that says more than one Model K was on this shipment, it would be interesting to learn about. I assume (here we go again) the author has some piece of evidence to make this claim, and will try to find out what.

I'd like to find out more about early Ford cars being sent all over the globe, and it would be good to find more complete records if they exist, of exactly what cars went where. We believe two 1906 Model K that were shipped to Berlin (based on news accounts), and have found no Ford Motor Company records or other corroboration. Also, there is a photo at the 1907 Brussels auto show that appears to have a Model K at the Ford booth, but again, no concrete evidence.

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 04:36 am:

Hi Rob,

This is a hard one.

The Ford of Canada (FoC) production and sales figures in American Business Abroad (ABA) show, for 1905, 117 vehicles produced and sold. All were sold on the domestic market. That I think is a believable account. Possibly some of those domestic sales were indeed bound for overseas, before Robert Lockwood was up and running or before things were accounted for more efficiently or properly? Maybe.

In 1906, we suddenly have a radical contrast, if Mays is to be believed. Just 25 domestic sales and 76 export sales. In contrast, ABA claims production of 99 (more or less the same as the previous year) with 73 domestic sales and 26 export sales. The ABA figures make more sense.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 07:21 am:

John,
I did a little "hunting." You may have these:




An agency says they have sold 15 Fords, following a "boat load" of Model F arriving in NZ:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 02:20 pm:

Hi Rob,

Thanks for those and, yes, got them. But I'd rather have them twice or more than not at all, so thanks.

Best wishes,

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 08:24 pm:

A June 1906 Canadian ad. The Model K, selling for $2500 in the U.S, is listed at $3200. Toward the bottom of the ad The $500 Model N (US) is listed at $650:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Monday, February 10, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

Rob
You can try reaching Mr. Mays through his website
http://www.theoilspoteh.ca/
100 years is available there


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 12:09 am:

Steve,

THANK YOU!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 12:20 am:

I have not explored the early days of Ford concentrating only on Model T's in Australia.

I do have amongst my notes some early information some of which was included in The History of Ford Australia by Norm Darwin and myself.


Lockwood was employed by the Daisy air rifle Co to export their products. Ford chose him on the recommendation of Charles H Bennet a Ford stock holder.

Lockwood became the Ford export head in 1904.

He worked on a commission of 5% shipping Model A's out of New York at US$950 (free on board) for the Tonneau and US$850 for the Runabout. Shipping was carried out by Crossman and Seieken of New York.

Lockwood ceased exports in 1906 when he gave the business to Davies and Fehon who at that time had established an office in New York.

The initial exports were shipped via Canada to avoid the additional duty.

Hope that helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 12:37 am:

Peter,

I've seen Mr. Lockwood's name discussed in the Ford board of directors meetings as they discussed hiring him. I didn't know he was a former Bennett associate. It's quite interesting the involvement the investors had with Ford Motor Company in the early years. Bennett was also an original Ford Manufacturing Company investor, but for some reason pulled out at the last minute (after incorporation).

This link has a story Charles Bennett recited in "reminisces" by Ford associates and employees. Mr. Bennett tells of a night of drinking with Mr. Lockwood and the Dodge brothers.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uee5cigk7txo8z9/Dodge%20Brothers%20out%20on%20the%20Town.pdf

Excerpt (from The Henry Ford):


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 12:59 am:

Rob, I forgot to mention Bennet My notes say only one T) was the Chief of the Daisy air rifle Co. also


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 01:36 am:

Peter,

I'm frequently wrong, especially on spelling (even more so with single and double consonants) but I feel fairly confident on this one:

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 04:24 am:

Hi again young Peter and Rob,

Just to clarify things about Robert M Lockwood. and to add some more juice - slightly off-topic but here we go.

Lockwood was the export agent for the Daisy Air Rifle Co. He had his own export business in NYC - the centre of international trade at the time. Charles Bennett was a stockholder - maybe a director (memory lapse here) at Daisy. But he was a pretty important dude in the scheme of things. Daisy had done very well when the pioneered mass production, of armaments badly needed during the American Civil War! He had later been approached to invest money with this young and enthusiastic upstart called Henry Ford, who really did believe there was a place for automobiles for the masses (today we're known as the commoners!).

Charles thought that was a good idea, so he invested and became a director of Ford in the process.

Enter Percival Perry. We'll call him PP. PP sailed to NYC and convinced Henry to let him sell Fords in London. Henry knew Charles was aware of exporting, so he called him on the 'phone (or maybe wrote a letter or sent a messenger). Charles replied that Henry really did need to talk to the agent who looks after all of Daisy's exports. A chap called Lockwood.

Hence Henry and Robert got into bed together and began exporting Ford motor cars to PP. When Ford of Canada was up and running and looking to export (indeed, their very reason for being) Henry phoned them (or wrote or sent another messenger) to tell them oooops suggest to them to sign up with Robert. That made sense - why reinvent the wheel? So off to Robert did Ford of Canada go.

In turn, Robert appointed a bunch of shipping agents to look after the various destination markets. In all probability they were probably already well established links and looked after Lockwoods other exports to various territories, and were now happy of the extra volumes of an all new product called a motor car - but let's not let the truth get in the way of a good story. However, that's why we have one agent for Aussie, and another for NZ, and yet another for South Africa, and so on.

Lockwood looked after all of the Ford - US and Ford of Canada exports right through the first decade of the century. Almost certainly a bunch of private exports left both the US and Canada until all that was tightened up. It was in 1910, I think (there's that memory problem again) that Robert was let go, because Ford had decided to set up their own export division.

John Stokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 11:29 am:

From the board of directors:

October 15, 1903, Bennett supports taking steps to gain foreign business at first shareholders meeting.



Oct 24th 1903, Board instructs a contract be signed with Mr. Lockwood:




April 24, 1904, Board agrees to ask Mr. Lockwood to meet them in Detroit:



At the same meeting, the board agrees not to extend contract for more vehicles to Canadian agent:



May 6th, 1904, board meets Mr. Lockwood, and pledged up to 50 machines for export trade:



August 4th, 1904, Ford Canada Company approved by the board:



A lot has happened since the first Ford was pushed out the door a little of a year before..........

copies of minutes - Acc 512, THF


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 01:54 pm:

That makes fascinating reading Rob. Seeing the original handwritten notes and signatures always brings into sharp reality of the folk who actually acted out the scenes we now read about in the history books! Lump in throat stuff!

Conversely, little did those same folk realise that, as they set out to break down the barriers to communication - effective transport between one neighbourhood and the next - that only a century later their writings would be "digitalised" ('What?' I hear them say) and transmitted around the world in milli-seconds. If you'd proposed that to one of their meetings they would've dismissed you as a weirdo!

We've come a long way.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 04:10 pm:

John,
Yes, when reading the minutes, along with the actual handwriting of James Couzens, it adds a sense of realism to what these men were creating. It also brings into focus how "hands on" the board of directors were with the day to day activities of Ford Motor Company.

I think today we believe Dodge Brothers, Ford Manufacturing Company and Ford Motor Company were distinctly different companies with different goals and leadership. In reality, it seems to me these different groups were inter related, and operated in a very transparent manner in relation to each other. In other words, the Dodge brothers couldn't do anything that the Ford Motor Company directors were not aware. Ford Motor Company could not make a move that Ford Manufacturing (same people directing both) and Dodge Brothers were not aware of, etc.

I think all three entities were "joined at the hip" and worked well together to build a product (Ford cars) that were hugely successful from the very beginning. Today, we think of the different companies as competing, and I'm beginning to suspect they were much more of a "team" than rivals or just groups conducting business together.

But, that's just me.......

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 04:37 pm:

I have a copy of a letter dated Jan 27 1905 to Ford Canada from Canada Dept of Customs showing the value of parts imported into Canada.
Red chassis $266.30
Yellow chassis $271.30
9 x 36, 9 x 40 sprocket $5.00
All supplied by Dodge Bros.
I am unable to resize for posting
stemilcorporation@gmail.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 05:37 pm:

Steve,

I hope you don't mind if I post them for you.....

At the bottom of page 1 are coils for $6.00 each, from the "E. S. Huff Co." This is Ford Motor Company employee Ed "Spider" Huff:






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 05:56 pm:

I had misplaced this (did you send it to me Steve?), more Walkerville Model K:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By steve miller- mississauga,ontario on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 08:59 pm:

Rob
Thanks for posting.
This information was located at the University of Windsor Archives. I din't know at the time anyone wanted it. I never did find what I was looking for but as we know 'everything has a reason'


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