I am new to this forum & seeking info about this 1922 Ford T Truck.
1. Is the wood cab original?
a. Is it missing any major parts lights on cab?
b. Is the bed correct?
2. I am concerned about the worm gear differential limiting top speed to ~20 MPH. Is there an easy upgrade to obtain 40 MPH speed?
3. Estimated valve?
I sure like the looks of it. Can't help much on the questions but welcome to the group.
Ford never made a wooden cab or wooden beds for TT so those are after market or home built. The cab doesn't have the right proportion or top shape of many after market bodies so I'm guessing it home made. A TT chassis would have come with a small metal dash but we can't see that. Also verify the engine number.
An "easy" upgrade for speed is relative to your skills and pocketbook.
It's hard to place a value on the wood cab trucks unless you can identify the maker.
The radiator and hood appear to be 1924 - 27.
I blew up the photos trying to see where the drive shaft enters the differential and can't tell but it looks like a regular setup to me.......?
If so the part about 20 mph top speed goes right out the window.......
Welcome aboard Andy. In the early years, Ford didn't offer any kind of factory cab, so, you had to have one built, or build your own. Yours looks like others I've seen from the period.(Should be no Phillips head screws.) You bed doesn't look like anything I've ever seen before and is not factory. I can't tell if your shifter is for a Ruckstel axle or aux trans. You need to figure out what you have, so, you know where to go to get more speed. Ruckstel has underdrive and direct--no increase in speed. Some aux trans for TT's were between the rear of the driveshaft and front of rearend and, like the Ruckstel offered a direct and underdrive. There were many makes of aux trans that fit behind the Ford trans that offered an overdrive--more speed (with a strong engine). Check your gear ratio--a high speed ring and worm is available. Standard is 7.25 to 1. Making more speed is like it is in any other car--not hard, just expensive. My first T was a TT, and cruising at 15 drove me crazy--so, my next one was a speedster. I still have both. The speedster was built to go fast, the TT wasn't.
Andy -- If you can post a picture of the rear end, we could answer your question about speed.
Redlined at 20 MPH or do I have some reserves?
I am OK w/ 40 MPH.
Andy, That is a TT Truck. My 25 TT Cab has been checked with a gps at 42 mph. It humms along at 30 quite nice. I have the high speed gears and a Ruxtell with 700 - 20 tires. I also have the lined shoes and it will slide the tires with ease.
If you like the truck and have the spare money enjoy it. The larger cab has more comfort if you on the large size. My C Cab is tight for most.
Start by keeping in mind the fact that in pictures everything looks better than it really is. That said, we can see several things in these photos.
1 No. As Ken pointed out Ford never supplied a wooden cab. Period original? Nope. The cab and bed are recent home-made constructions. Not necessarily a bad thing, but not original.
a It's not missing anything original in the cab (See #1).
b Also see #1.
2 I get scared approaching 40 mph in my touring car. The thought of hurtling down the road in a TT at that speed is terrifying. This truck has a lever for an auxiliary transmission, but I can't tell from the pictures if it has external rear brakes. The aux transmission presents the potential for free-wheeling neutral. If that happens and you don't have some very good extra brakes, the results can be extremely disappointing. Yes, you can get rear end gears to go faster (not cheap), but I wouldn't. If you want to go fast, get a speedster.
"Restored" means many different things to different people. It can be every nut and bolt cleaned, chased, and painted, with all mechanical components returned to like-new condition. Or it means a coat of paint squirted on over a few layers of grease and dirt. I once bought a "restored" car that looked pretty good, but I had to rebuild the front end, the rear end, the carburetor, and a few other little details. Inspect closely before plunking down any moolah, preferably assisted by an experienced Model T person. That person might also help you determine whether this is really a 1922 truck. It's very common for these vehicles to be titled and registered with the wrong year.
3. Seven grand tops. That's if everything is in working order and appears to be in good condition.
"Hasn't been started in a couple of years". Why not?
"...but she does run and drive." Yeah? Show me.
That's my opinion,and it's worth what you paid for it.
Ford did not offer a bed or cab for the TT till the 1924 model year. From 1918 to 1923 you bought just the chassis and supplied your own cab and bed. These could be home built or bought from one of several suppliers. So the cab is more or less correct. Model TT and for that matter Model AA's with worm drive were never meant to be fast, they were built to haul heavy loads.
The big unanswered question here is what's that shift lever connected to? In the photos it does not look like (but hard to tell with certainty) you have a Ruckstell rear end which would provide factory slow and slower, nor does it look like (even harder to tell) there is a rear drive shaft mounted gear box.
The shifter lever resembles the one that is used on a Muncie auxiliary transmission. If it is, you should be able to get a little over 30 MPH in high/3rd. Post a picture of what's under the floor board where the shifter is. You can just take it from near ground level looking up under the truck and that location. That will tell us a lot.
Neat truck!! All early TT's and many later TT's were sold as a running chassis with no cab or bed. The cab and bed were after market, some made by commercial manufacturers and some home made. Consequently, in my opinion, there's no such thing as a "correct" TT cab and bed other than the later factory set-ups. Many, like yours, are unique and wonderful.
Looking at the pictures I disagree that the cab is recent construction. Perhaps not all original wood, but in my opinion, it's a real period truck cab. Better pics could tell more, but I am seeing discoloration by the fasteners, periods windshield hinges, and most importantly a raised area on the metal side panels that add strength. I am seeing some details that are indicative of Martin-Parry company. Good looking truck, in my opinion. Some more pictures especially inside the cab would tell more. There is a new website dedicated to M-P brand, Martin-Parry.com .......... Ya gotta love a wood cab in any variation, and generally more comfortable than the factory offerings.
Like others, I suspect the wood body is a newer creation modeled on what would have been possible aftermarket in the era. Company like Martin Perry had a great business making body styles that the manufacturers didn't care to make.
Royce is a great spotter usually, and I would agree that the scale or perspective makes it look like it is a later hood and radiator than a '22. You can measure the side panel height at front and back of the hood and post it here...someone will tell you immediately what years it was for.
My own guess is that there is a steel firewall under that closed hood...but a pic would be nice.
Post the serial number stamped in the engine just above the water inlet. This group will then really zing in with good stuff from there.
TT worm drives can sometimes be a deterrent as they are turtles...you usually have to leave early on tours and let the rest catch up later but there are ways to get the gearing back up a bit but they don't usually come cheap. But talk to 99% of TT owners and they wouldn't have it any other way.
Sounds like maybe you are scoping an acquisition...I wouldn't worry about it being perhaps a collage...it does look sharp. I'll offer advice...my first was pure but down on its heels, took forever to get confidence with it and insisted on keeping it pure as it needed work. Labor of love ensued. The second was a brass era garage queen that had never had anything more than a soft restoration on it back in the early 50's and while I enjoyed it immensely and got to say 'yeah, mine' at car shows...it to was a labor of love to keep it that way as we are but just stewards. Some other tangents buys followed pretty much in the same vein. My last 'buy' here was a put together car with a newer wooden interpreted Hack body...I have never had so much fun! It's a get and go...runs strong but is a put-together of years from 1919 to 1927. It is NOT a museum piece and I'm never going to make it even try and come close and just have to share that saga about the relieved and fun part. At car shows I even let the obnoxious kids climb all over the running boards because 'what can they hurt?' whereas the previous 30 years I wanted to rope things off and sit there with a scatter-gun loaded with salt
Tim types faster and uses less words
The TT Truck is heavy and rides like a heavy car. Nice ride and stable at 40 mph. The shift lever is for the Rucktell. The rear lined brakes stop the truck very well. and unlike the car it has a 6 spline coupler not a single key as the car has. If the rear end has the stock gears of 7.25 it will be a slow truck. But there is a 5.17 gear set that will let you travel with the T cars. I have run with the cars in my local club with out any problem. I may have a spare gear set, I will look and see. The TT Truck is a nice ride and most people will come and check out the truck before the cars in your group.
One more comment:
If you're looking to buy or sell that truck, in my opinion the value will be largely influenced by the transmission set-up. If it has an overdrive that provides speeds of 30+ MPH then I agree with Steve's opinion of $7,000 tops. If it does not have an overdrive, then the value would (again in my opinion) be less. The reason for this is that a stock TT with a high end of <20 MPH is too slow for touring with a group.
Also as Steve said, That's my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.
From the rear end photo, it does not appear to have a Ruckstell - cab shifter appears to be that of an auxillary transmission. I have a 3 speed Warford & high geared Ruckstell in my TT and it cruises comfortably at 35 mph. with 32 x 4.5 tires.
My '25 TT has a Ruckstell with a slow and slower gearing. 25 mph is pretty much wound out. I attached a picture. My roadster has been up to 42 mph per gps but I would not want to be in the TT at that speed. That's a nice old truck you're looking at. PK
Thanks for all your help & the very warm welcome. It is very much appreciated.
I have located a youtube video of this truck! It may have some additional info on the drive train & cab
The video helps a lot, but you still need a little info. There's no Ruckstell rear end for sure. Likewise, there's no drive shaft mounted auxiliary transmission just ahead of the rear end.
There is definitely an auxiliary transmission mounted at the Ford transmission output. The video was just not quiet enough to see what make it is. Please do not take my word for it and verify for yourself, but regardless of what brand that aux. tranny is, I'd bet in hi/3rd your looking at something a little over 30 MPH if it has low ratio rear end gears and close to 40 MPH if the rear end gears are a high ratio set.
Also note that even if the rear end gears are a low ratio set, replacing them with a high ratio set is really not a big deal, just some $$ for the high ratio gear set and a set of gaskets and seals.
1926 - 27 pedals, metal firewall, 1926 - 27 fan pulley.
Royce is right, could easily be a 26-27 engine too. The running boards are the earlier short ones though.
One more comment, particularly if you're thinking of buying this truck. From what I can see there's only one pair of brake rods indicating it does not have auxiliary brakes. If you do buy the truck, be sure to budget for a set of rear wheel aux. brakes and install them. Aux. transmissions have been know to get stuck between gears and when that happens the brake pedal is useless, all you have left is the emergency brake lever, not a great situation. In my opinion aux. brakes on this truck are a must have.
Yes, I want the best brakes that were available in 1922. The truck has to stop.
The presence of a water pump on a vehicle designed to run without one suggests a possible cooling problem. I agree, it doesn't look like the necessary auxiliary brakes are there. Before taking the plunge I'd look up the nearest MTFCA or MTFCI club and try to find some experienced T guys to help you check it out in person.
Andy, The rear brakes are 12 inch by 2 inch and stop very well. Cars need the extra brakes because the drums are smaller. If you live in the hills and haul heavy loads you will need the outside brakes but the stock TT brakes are fine. You still have the stock drum brakes also. Scott
Although larger, the TT stock rear wheel brakes work just like the rear wheel brakes on a regular T. They are actuated only by the emergency brake lever. The service brake on a TT, actuated by the brake pedal, is the exact same as on a regular T, it's the transmission drum brake only. The rear drums are not utilized for regular braking.
In the event of the aux. transmission getting stuck between gears, there is no service brake unless the vehicle (T or TT) is equipped with auxiliary brakes. Only the use of the emergency brake lever would be available.
From the video, I can see many points that tell me the cab is Martin-Parry. Location of bolt heads, metal on door edges, design of the stamped metal panels in door and cab body,and many other points. The wood appears to be oak , so I would guess the wood has been replaced. I happen to have the identical body, but mine has original wood that happens to be birch. M-P sent the assembled panels through a sanding machine, before they were painted black. I could tell this because I disassembled , stripped ,scraped and sanded it down and refinished in a natural color. A huge job (I'd never do that again) The original also had a roll up curtain in the back window. I should mention that I haven't seen enough examples to know if they were all birch construction, but my guess is likely they were made from whatever hardwood was available to them at the time. After all they were truck bodies and were painted from the factory. The factory catalog of that body does not specify the wood type. The bed shown, which was available in many types originally , appears to not resemble a factory type, but looks like it could do the job. Looks like a fun old truck!
I'm betting this was sold as a chassis with an aftermarket body about 1923 - 1925. It has early/low front fenders, short running boards, but probably/maybe a high radiator and hood shelves with a '26-27 engine and transmission. Also, it has some sort of auxiliary transmission. I suspect it will do more that 20 mph, but not a lot. I think the bed is a modern homemade one, but the body looks "original".
I found this aux brake photo on the web. Aux brakes function w/ the emergency brake lever correct?
Andy, those are considered parking brakes and do operate with the brake lever. Unlike the car style, they are much larger on the TT, are lined ( or supposed to be) and if set up right will stop you as an emergency brake. Most of the car style are just cast iron, rather small, and are known for being a parking brake EXCEPT in 1926-27 they were made larger on the cars and were also lined, but still known as the parking brake.
A correction: It doesn't seem to have an auxiliary transmission. In the video, it was the battery on the opposite side that I mistook for a transmission. Also, in the video, it doesn't have a Ruckstell, but does in the above picture, it does. Also, in the video, it has normal TT rear suspension not the one in the picture above. What's up?
Yes, it does have an aux transmission. The fourth picture in the ad clearly shows the shift lever.
The photo you found on the web shows what looks to me like the stock rear brakes, not extras. Yes, they're operated by the hand lever, just like the rear brakes in the car. It also shows a Ruckstell rear axle, which the truck in the ad doesn't appear to have.
Opps, I didn't notice the "web" picture. My mistake. And, I'll have to retract my statement about the transmission and agree with you. The gear shift lever sure is in a funny position though. I watched the video several times and think I can see the bottom of it in one place. If it has an extra transmission, but surely will go faster than 20 mph.
A side view on the youtube link looks like my Muncies. If that's it, the position of the shift lever would put it in overdrive or reverse. For those not familiar with them, they're an "H" pattern, but OD and direct are switched from the 2nd and 3rd you're used to. Up and away is overdrive, back and away is direct. They have a neutral in the middle of the H which will definitely make you pucker when you try to shift on the fly and get caught in neutral without aux brakes! What adds to the excitement is that many are worn and jump out of OD when you back off the gas, so, be aware of that if you test drive it. I saw no aux brakes, so, I'd test how the emergency brakes hold before I left the driveway!
Go drive it and see how you like it. The auxilliary transmission is likely 3 speed, underdrive, straight through, and overdrive. Some however are 2 speed and just straight through and underdrive. If you can put in overdrive and it really moves on down the road you likely have a high speed rear axle. If it doesn't run, then you are buying a nice pig in a poke, but that gives you more room to negotiate. You can buy new high speed gears, I think they are $600-$700 plus surprises when you go to install them. Installation is pretty straight forward but more than a days work.
My assessment is its a pretty nice truck and the reason it doesn't run is the seller doesn't have a clue as to how to get it running or drive it.
If you want a Model T truck and the price is right, I don't think you can go wrong. Taking a T guy with you would help you evaluate it, but make sure he is your friend or he might buy it out from under you. As I said, its a nice truck.
A few more comments: It looks like a 26-27 more than a 22. The rear wheels look like 33 x 5 which would be found on a 22. The front wheels are 4.50-21 which is a plus as is the later engine and transmission(especially if you have large feet). The brake drum in the later transmission is wider and the transmission housing bolts to the block making it a more rugged assembly. The year of the truck is really unimportant. You likely will need to have the radiator recored, about$350.
Ted last I saw the new ringgear and worm high speed at 1600.00 + now plus shipping. Andy thats a nice set of TT double hasslers
No Hasslers on the truck in the ad and the video. I notice it does have some of those "stabilizing" springs on the steering linkage. Aren't those often an attempt to cure a shimmy or a wobble caused by worn parts?
I viewed the video again and saw something I missed the first time. The comments saying it's an earlier truck with a later engine are supported by the fact that it has both an "electric" ignition switch and a coil box switch. It did not come out of the factory that way. In all probability when the engine was changed out the new engine had a starter, which the original engine didn't. They needed to add the combination ignition/light switch for the new "electric" equipped engine and just used the original coil box even though the coil box switch is no longer needed.
This is how my TT is. When my grandfather had the truck he always needed to turn on both keys. By the time I got it the coil box needed a kit, so as long as I had it apart I just re-wired the coil box to bypass the switch. Now I just use the upper "electric" switch.
I think it's a really neat truck. The imperfections are what give it personality!
Who is making the reproduction TT high speed gearset?
Steve - I'm pretty sure that those "stabilizing" springs you mentioned are not really for "stabilizing", but are merely an anti-rattle device that was pretty common during the Model "T" era. I recall that some time ago, there was discussion about them on the forum which talked about long-term use of those anti-rattle accessory springs would cause wear on steering components including the tie rod. I have actually seen at least one tie rod where there was a distinct groove worn in the tie rod where the spring bears against the tie rod with considerable pressure. I guess it stands to reason that continual steering component movement for many years would account for the wear. I believe those springs are available (new) from major suppliers such as Lang's and if they were added when the truck was restored, the wear would no doubt be negligible, however, if those springs were on the truck continually for most of the life of the truck, I'd sure check the tie rod for wear to be sure. Sorry for all the "words" but I do just happen to remember the forum discussion on this subject and I guess I paid close attention because my touring has a set of those anti-springs that were on the car when I bought it. My tie rod does in fact have a bit of wear from the springs, however, in my estimation (whatever that's worth) the wear is negligible. The front axle assembly on my touring is very greasy/oily however, and if it's been that way for a long time, that might be why the wear is "negligible" and not rather deep and well pronounced wear like the one tie rod I saw some time ago. Again, sorry for the long-winded "ramble" but the wear on that tie rod was so significant that it really (unlike many other things) sticks in my mind,........FWIW,.........harold
This is from several years ago, before the price escalated.
Mikes Machine Shop & Welding Inc.
Is proud to reproduce what everybody is after to speed up their Ford Model T Ton Trucks 1917 1927
For both wheel and worm $ 620.00 set Now in stock for purchase This is truly a milestone in history.
Other related parts such as Thrust bearing, axles,drive shaft, drive shaft coupling also will be in stock soon.
To make your purchase contact: Mike Hartmann at 479-489-5815 x114 eMail : email@example.com
The price that Steve posted above was for the first batch of gears made. The second batch is priced much higher - I thought it was about $1,300.00 but perhaps one of you knows for sure.
Project Update: I called the owner of the truck today & left a message Thus, I am still in the fight for this truck!
Differential Gear set 7.25 Granny Gears - pulling power & very poor top end, differential gear set 5.17 less low end torque but more cruising speed, should travel with the T cars. How about differential gear set 3.XX - highway gear set reduced pulling power excellent cruising speed. Are 3.XX gears available? Has anyone ordered a custom differential set of gears for a Model T?
I am from the muscle car era, 1966 Corvette 427 4 speed convertible. If you want highway speed you purchase a set of 3.08 gears. If you want unbelievable acceleration, poor mileage & low cruising speed install a 4.33 gear set. Gear sets to choose from 3.08, 3.36, 3.55, 3.70, 3.90, 4.11, and 4.33
I need to find out what gear set is currently in the truck & go from there. If it has the 7.25 I will be interested in trading it for a 5.17 or something lower 3.xxx if available.
Where am I going wrong?
I've never heard of anything other than the 7.25 or 5.17, Nobody else wants those 7.25 gears either, so the demand (and price) for the high speed ones are high.
If there's an overdrive in the accessory trans - and there's a good chance there is, then maybe you can live with a 7.25 rear axle. Accessory brakes are highly recommended, though. MTFCA:s first president Walt Rosenthal lost his life in an accident where an accessory trans got out of gear so the regular trans brake didn't work.
Are the stock parking brakes sufficient to stop the truck traveling at 30 MPH if the transmission brake develops a problem? The brakes in the web pic look large enough. These brakes are lined correct? Do the AUX brakes supersede the stock brakes? A simple remove & replace? Thanks! Andy
They may be OK, the problem is you've got to have the presence of mind to grab the emergency brake handle when you're stressed by the malfunction of the regular foot brake *and* the struggle to get into gear again - lots of training so grabbing the handle sits like a natural reflex in an emergency might help - and I think that goes for all large drum/lined hub brake T's.
We are at the start of a heat wave! Might even see something higher than freezing next week so spring is, well, OK I am jumping the gun a little.
I would say from what I have seen so far it is not much of a fight over this truck. First, the you-tube is over 3 years old and the pictures look like they were done about the same time or at least back when things were green and warm. I would think this has been for sale for some time so maybe the asking price is to high and it has no offers. My guess from the things we have seen so far is this truck would sell between $5,000 and $7,000 as some on here have said. With that in mind, it is time to go look at it and make an offer if you think the seller will deal with you. Anyone on here close by where Andy lives that knows these trucks willing to go along and look at it with him? I am 50 miles from him and willing to go as long as the seller will let us test drive it but I don't know much about the different parts years on the TT's. I know some T guys from Kokomo but don't know names since I only see them once a year when they drive to Winamac to the power show in July.
I think its time to help Andy out so he can get this thing in shape and learn to drive it by spring.
Yes, the rear brakes are lined. The aux brakes don't replace them, they add to them. The regular brakes are inside the drum and the aux brakes are on the outside. Normally the rear brakes are operated by the hand lever, but you can rig up a linkage so they're also operated by the same pedal as the transmission brake.
Think a lot about what you plan to do with it, and where you plan to do it, and if you'd be happier with a car. That truck won't do well on an open trailer--you'll suck the top off going down the interstate. An enclosed trailer will have to be oversized to get it inside. It probably will not fit through a standard garage door without letting the air out of the tires or jacking/compressing the front spring. (I assembled my TT inside and couldn't get it out). No seating capacity for kids or friends, no dry storage for luggage if you drive it on a trip. None of this may be a problem for you, but, you need to think about it "before" you buy it. Starting with the "wrong" car may contribute to the problem of T's multiplying!
One other thought: Is all that glass, safety glass, plastic, or what. Lexan would be good, plain glass a no no, banging you head into a plexiglass windshield might break it and get you cut up.
I spoke briefly w/ the owner today of this truck today. She claims she put some cash into the truck & raised the price $3K over night. Thus, the total asking price is now $12k.
I am currently looking for a replacement vehicle.
It was too high at 9K.
It's a really nice truck, but not at $12K. At that price she'll have it a while unless she finds a real sucker....
Also, someone should tell her that it's not the original engine and certainly (with the aux. trans.) not the original drive train.
Sounds like she's fishing.....