Hayes wire wheels

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Hayes wire wheels
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 09:01 am:

Recently I restored a set of 23" Hayes wire wheels for a T model friend. They were completely torn down, sand blasted and primed, re-spoked with all new spokes, and trued ready for painting. He has had second thoughts about using them and asked me what they might be worth.

I have never seen a set for sale, let alone a fully re-built set. The new ones Snyders show are adapted to T wood wheel hubs, and they are listed at $2800 for four. These are period correct originals with the hub caps included, and I thought they should be worth more than that.

Your opinions appreciated.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 09:19 am:

Worth more? No way man. I'll do you a favor and take those ugly things off your hands. =P

This is one of those epic, rare speedster items that I don't even have enough $$$ to offer an opinion on. I did see a set of original Hayes wire wheels with demountable rims sell on eBay last year - they were very nice and complete only a single spoke missing from 1 wheel, needed to be blasted and painted but otherwise in good shape - they went for around $3,500 if I remember correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 10:49 am:

Allen In the US they are 3500-6000.00/a set, Hubcaps can't be found, non-existing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 03:23 pm:

I think the wheels you describe, Seth, went for either $3,050 or $3,080. Can't remember exactly. They were mine. The hub caps were in great shape, but only about 80% of original nickel remaining.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 04:42 pm:

John, if it is any help to US T modellers, excellent reproduction hubcaps are available in Australia. They are made by the lost wax process and thus are really accurate copies. EPA laws demand they are made from a reddish alloy, [bronze?] rather than brass, but that is of no consequence when nickel plated. Cost is AU$120 each. Go to WWW.VintageandClassicReproductions.com for more details and catalog.

May this help somebody.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 05:02 pm:

That's cool Dan, I couldn't remember the exact number but I thought it was $3,000 and some change.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 06:10 pm:

Thanks Allen. John Danuser T and TT Ford Parts used NOS, Reproduction and some period accessories 60 yrs worth of buying. Fulton Mo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 07:19 pm:

I have Hayes wheels on my '17 Torpedo Runabout. They are nifty wheels for any T. If the guy wanted $2800 why are they not yours now?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 08:10 pm:

I have a full set of Hayes (small drum)and they all have 4 notches on the wire wheel that requires a special outer rim. I also have two front wheels that don't have notches and have always had the Hayes hubcap. Did they make two kinds of wheels? I need another outer rim for my full set.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 02:49 am:

Michael, all the Hayes wheels I have seen have a notch at the bolt hole to allow the foot on the Hayes brand rims to go on over the felloe. However, other brand rims without the foot will also fit. I have a mix on my chocolate van at present, but have another Hayes rim being plated to make up a full set. So either a Hayes rim or a different brand will fit, to make up your full 'set'.

One of the wheels I rebuilt required a replacement felloe. I used one from a wood spoke wheel, and had to heat the felloe and beat a notch into it to accept the Hayes type rim. You could do the same on your two front ones.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 02:55 am:

Royce, the $2800 is the price of a set of Snyders replacement wheels. I mentioned that simply as a starting point for a valuation. I would certainly like them at that price.

However, I may be a little soft, but for items I buy from T model friends, I like to pay a reasonable price. These may be worth more than I would pay, but I am not about to beat him up on a price.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 07:55 am:

Allan, missing one rim doesn't make a full set. I messed up on my post. The two rims without the notches resemble the notched rims in every other way. I run them the way they are. I'm only wanting to complete my "full set". They are a bear to clean up by hand. I don't like to sandblast anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 06:05 pm:

Michael, I have three different Hayes demountable wheel types on a shelf in the garage, all 21"

On the outside face of the felloes,

one has the edge folded out towards you when looking at it ( it has notches for the Hayes rims)

One has the edge folded into the felloe 180 degree opposite to No 1 with notches

The third one has no fold just the edge of the metal to support the rim and there is no notches.

Hayes wheels were optional Ford factory equipment here in Australia, when news arrived that the 1926 Fords would have wire wheels as an option, Ford Australia purchased Hayes wheels for customers instead of the normal ones, maybe because of price or they came from Canada? Locals would not have realised they were not the same as USA.

or, because they had demountable rims owners they were more practical.

There is also a big shortage of rear Hayes wheels, maybe due to them being used with a rear end for trailer construction and then destroyed from being overloaded. Anyone have another answer??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 06:58 pm:

The rear Hayes hubs tend to wallow out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 07:08 pm:

Peter it took me almost 30 yrs to find the rear 21 in Hayes wheels, I had the fronts from Mel Alexander for yrs, but as you say those rears are a bear to find


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 07:45 pm:

I'm fortunate to have an extra small drum rear with missing spokes. I also have just a rear hub only. If the rear hubs go bad, I'll have two spares.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Wednesday, February 12, 2014 - 07:48 pm:

I'm fortunate to have an extra small drum rear with missing spokes. I also have just a rear hub only. If the rear hubs go bad, I'll have two spares.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, February 13, 2014 - 02:21 am:

Peter, I have a pair of front 21" wheels with the outer edge of the felloe turned out. These take a Hayes rim only, so are almost impossible to find. To get around this I have secreted away a set of Ford 21" felloes to possibly build into wheels. These have no folded out edge on the felloe.

My take on the scarcity of rear wheels is that fronts survived under trailers/sulkies on T axles while the rears were discarded because a heavier and more difficult to mount differential. I have found 4 pairs of fronts under trailers. One pair came from a sulky I spotted when my wife wanted a detour to a toilet stop. I never refuse her that privelege now!

They do tend to flog out the rear hubs. One I found had an extra keyway cut in it, and that was flogged too. I repair these by press fitting a machined down centre from a good T hub. The hub needs to be out of the wheel for this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Fielding on Thursday, February 13, 2014 - 05:10 pm:

You may want to check with John McLaren. He is making the wire wheels available through most vendors. When I last spoke to him he was considering making Hayes wires as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, February 16, 2014 - 03:45 pm:





I bought these about 25 years ago at the Pate Swap meet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Sunday, February 16, 2014 - 09:06 pm:

Paul -- I'd be glad to give you back what you paid for them.

That's just the generous kinda' guy I am. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Sunday, February 16, 2014 - 09:37 pm:

Mike,

I will keep your generous offer in mind but I think I will hold on to them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, February 17, 2014 - 03:21 am:

Paul, your set look like the 21" front wheels I have. I can't find rears, and am not likely to find rims anyway. Do you have any idea why the 6 holes are drilled in the brake drums? Were they adapted to fit something else.

Breaking news. The set I re-built are going to the Ballarat Swap meet this weekend, with a no offer price of AU$4000 for the set. Their owner has decided to let them go. I have not yet seen the hubcaps, but they are due to arrive in the mail tomorrow. Unfortunately, I am not likely to sell that much worth of stuff to fund their purchase.

Allan from down under.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Monday, February 17, 2014 - 08:56 pm:

Allen,

The holes are for a Model T small brake drum. They are set up just like a 26-27 T wire wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, February 17, 2014 - 09:53 pm:

Paul, you have me confused, which is not that hard to do. On Hayes wire wheels with the small brake drums, as yours appear to be, the spokes are directly laced into the brake drum. The drum is an integral part of the wheel. It is not removable.

I cannot see how those holes can be used to add a standard brake drum to the hub. Have you had the wheels on the car? Hayes brake drums have a unique ridge between the drum surface and the face which mounts to the hub casting.The spokes are laced into a groove in this ridge as your photo shows. I have two badly rusted brake drums I am looking to replace, so I can build a set of wheels for myself.

Royce's green roadster wheels have front Hayes wheels grafted onto T hubs at the rear, to get around having to find good rear wheels.

Allan from down under, puzzled?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael R Beary on Tuesday, February 18, 2014 - 06:46 pm:

Allan, I've been playing around with my Hayes wheels the past week. I have found the split rims that were on the front hubs, didn't work on the back unless you relocated the hole for the inner tube. It seems my set required two different rims. I had three fronts so I drilled a 5-8ths hole in one of them so I could use it on the rear. I now have split rims all the way around! The spare small drum rear with missing spokes must have been run very loose. I checked it after following this thread and found the keyway bad. The other rear hub(no drum) seemed to be good. The axle nuts(rear) seem to go in to far. The cotter key won't do any good at that depth. I will try axle shims and washers to correct. Hope to powder coat them next week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, February 18, 2014 - 06:50 pm:

If you look at the Hayes wheels on my '17, they are all front wheels. A set of Model T rear hubs were machined to fit into two of the Hayes front hubs, which were machined larger to accommodate the modified rear hubs. Then the hubs were welded together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:35 am:

Michael, The shims in the hub should be considered to be a stop-gap cure. As you have found with your spare hub, they can wear badly and flog out the keyway.

Personally, I would not consider powdercoating laced wire spoke wheels. In use, the wheels flex and the spokes work against one another where they cross and the nipples work in the felloes. The powdercoat will not hold up to this. I spray mine with good quality enamel. I fit them to a hub and rotate them as I paint them, counting spokes as I go so I don't miss any.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:25 pm:

Allan, Have to agree with you about shimming the wheels. I would think very few wheels are good enough when found to be just painted and used and it sure seems that Hayes rear wheel hubs are of such poor quality they need reworking or alteration as you suggest or have alterations such as Royce's.

As to the powder coating having had several years in its use it is the only paint I would consider for wire wheels. I have never seen such as you describe, PC is paint,it has the same qualities as any good paint and is ideal for use on wire wheels as it gets into every area and applies an even coat with out all the problems of normal spray paint. If it does as you suggest so will spray paint. Applied properly it will actually fill any gaps around an in the nipples producing a better result.

I presume you speak from experience when you say that the wheels flex and the spokes work against each other.

If this is so and the wheels have been spoked properly with the correct tension on them then this is a fault with these wheels. There should not be any movement allowing the spokes to work where they cross or at the nipples. Being in tension movement should only occur if the spokes are not tight enough as they are placed into extra tension as the weight of the vehicle is placed on them as the wheels revolve. If the spokes at the top can allow the hub to drop then the spokes on the bottom will be put into compression and become loose.

I'm not sure if there are examples that some may know of but I believe that Hayes wire wheels are considered dangerous at higher than normal Model T road speed and therefore not suitable for use in speedsters.

This was pointed out to me at Richmond in 2008 when a very well known old speedway identity declined a ride in one speedster because of the fact it had Hayes wire wheels on it. He maintained they were prone to collapse at high speed due to their design and poor quality materials.

I would be interested if this like lots of things people claim here has any merit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:18 pm:

wire wheels of any brand have always been stronger than a wood spoke, thats why the racers used them. check your dykes manual and you'll see that a wood wheel places all the load down on the bottom one or two spokes, and a wire wheel carries the weight from the top, hub hanging so to speak from all the spokes above the axle. i know nothing of hayes wheels, but the only weakness could be from the demountable rim, not the wire spokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:25 pm:

I think that due to the safety hazards everyone should remove all those Hayes wheels and send them to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 08:55 pm:

Someone has posted before that he participated in an annual speedster race for a few years before there were too many accidents and liability issues and that the wire wheel guys tended to have wheel issues - breaking/collapsing/etc where the wood wheel guys did not.

However you always see wire wheels on all the high speed record type of cars. Maybe the wire wheel excel in straight-line speed (easier to balance) but can't handle some of the side-loads that the wood wheels can?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:11 pm:

Give it up Royce, I couldn't get anyone to send me their dangerous Buffalo wheels. It seems that the majority of the people who actually own wire wheels understand the care and maintenance required to use them safely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:59 pm:

I collected enough parts to put together a set of 30 x 3-1/2 Bud wire wheels including a spare for my 13 touring. Have 2K invested in the set including new spokes, 2 new rims/dimpling and painting. The Bud wheels drive off tapered hubs and do not have drive pins. They also have good locking features.
Have had them on our car for 1 yr. and am very happy with how they turned out. Have polished brass hub caps with "Ford" scrip.
Having Round wheels that are true....does make a difference on how smooth the T rides.

I may get some flak from Royce for not running original wheels on my 13 touring.....However, after seeing the Metallic green paint on his 17 roadster....put a grin on my face.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 10:51 am:

Les if needed I have a spare tire carrier w/cap for the Bud wire wheels original


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 11:29 am:

Thanks John,

I had an extra front hub with cap. Modified a later style model T spare tire carrier....worked great. Have the spare tire mounted on the back of our touring. Very happy with the set up. I do have 2 wheel centers and 1 extra cap if someone needs them. Otherwise, they will be at the Bakersfield swap meet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Fenton on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 09:01 pm:

I have decided to sell my set of pristine Hayes wheels. I was going to put them on ebay but remembered this post. They can get a free ride to Chickasha if anyone is interested.

Hayes Wire Wheels front side

Hayes Wire Wheels back side


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Fenton on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 09:04 pm:

Wow, those pix turned out bad when reduced from 4mb to 200k.
I can e-mail pix to anyone interested.
FrankFenton@cableone.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Fenton on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 09:16 pm:

I changed a few settings.

Hayes wire wheels front side

Hayes Wire Wheels back side


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 09:55 pm:

How much Mr. Harris?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 10:07 pm:

Sorry, I saw Frank and immediately thought of Frank Harris. My mistake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Fenton on Thursday, March 06, 2014 - 10:12 pm:

I'm thinking 5000 might be a fair price for these.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leigh Schubert on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 12:32 am:

I'm restoring my 15 roadster and using a large drum ruckstell rearend for which I have a restored set of Hayes wheels allowing the use of 21" demountibles. I have two pretty good hubcaps but need two more. Does anyone have some they will sell or do I have to get a local bronze foundry to make some lost wax castings of them? Does anyone else need some of these too?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Bergmann Sydney - Australia on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 04:34 am:

Leigh; Check out what Allan said in his post in this thread - Tuesday, February 11, 2014 - 04:42 pm: Hubcaps are available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Leigh Schubert on Friday, April 11, 2014 - 12:08 pm:

Tom, I took a close look at the photo of what they are offering for sale and it looks rather rough, more like a sand casting than lost wax. My friend here can do a lot better for about the same cost, probably quite a bit less when shipping is figured in. Thanks for the suggestion though. I do have two extra front hubs if anyone here is wanting to make up some wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 06:27 am:

Leigh, the hubcaps I mentioned are superb quality lost wax castings. I don't know what picture you have been looking at, but if you can get quality castings locally, and have the threads machined for the same amount, there are probably others who would appreciate knowing about them.

Cheers,

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Saturday, April 12, 2014 - 10:06 am:

There was a set at the Bakersfield swap, in the 3's if I remember.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Hanson on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:21 am:

When I see all the discussion about condition and prices for old original wheels. The question of safety and quality problems, begs the question, why not just purchase new MacLaren wheels?


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