These may not be Model T, however......

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: These may not be Model T, however......
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 01:14 am:

........I'd like to know what they are?

Photo taken of the Ford booth at the Olympia (London) auto show, December 1907:



Closeup of the touring and landaulet:


From the Collections of The Henry Ford, Copy and Reuse Restrictions Apply



This A.L.A.M. magazine article dated December 1907 covering the Olympia auto show says the Ford Junior had a "mono block." If so, they have to be considered a for runner to the Model T in my opinion:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 08:57 am:

Are you saying that paragraph of text has anything to do with the pictures? It does not contain the word Ford, for example. Appears to be describing a variety of different improvements on various engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:11 am:

"The Ford Junior has the engine cast in similar fashion"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:21 am:

Is it just me or doe's the radiator on the town car look like a model T radiator instead of one on the NRS chassis in the foreground?? Not the touring at the right of the picture.Bud in Wheeler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:27 am:

I'm not saying anything. The paragraph I highlighted talks about mono blocks (this means all cylinders in one casting). At the end of the highlighted, the article says "the Ford Junior"(English general term for Ford Models NRS) has the engine cast in similar fashion " (mono block).

Both the article and photographs refer to the December 1907 Olympia auto show held in England.

The article says Ford has a mono block. NRS models did not have "mono blocks." One may draw their conclusions, or not.

This article appeared in the same magazine, earlier issue, Oct 1907. It is not related to the photograph:





Until we have a photo of the engine, or a clear side view of a "pre-T, we won't know for sure if this was another English N/S phaeton (93 in wheelbase) or a pre T 97 inch, mono block, 20 hp car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:39 am:

Bud,

Yes, the Landaulette (Laundaulet, landaulet, and who knows how many other spellings) radiator looks very similar to a 1909 T radiator. Other photos exist of this car (at least one) that show an NRS style waterpump in the front of this car.

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:45 am:

I believe this photo is of the same car. I "stole" it from an Early Ford Registry link where Andrew B. posted it:

http://earlyfordregistry.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1092


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 04:18 pm:

Actually, the radiator appears to be the same as a Model NRS radiator since it has an NRS style water pump and crank (with a longer arm). My guess is it has the same engine as the one on display at Piquette, an NRS type engine with separate crankcase and removable head. The higher water outlet / head required a higher radiator and hood, thus giving it the similarity in appearance to a Model T radiator.

These experimental NRS + engines were rated at 20 horsepower, unlike the Model T which was rated at 22 horsepower on introduction in the fall of 1908.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 04:56 pm:

Rob,

The touring car, in your close-up above, shows an NRS type flywheel peeking out below the radiator. This would indicate, to me, that the touring has an NRS style engine. In other words, not a mono block engine. The other cars that are shown with NRS style water pumps, regardless of radiator shape, are also, in my opinion, equipped with NRS style engines. Royce suggests that perhaps these cars have prototype, removable head engines, as the example at Piquette. Maybe so, but even then, they would not be mono block engines as the cylinders are still bolted to an aluminum crank case.

As has been mentioned in the past, you can't take the words of these early reports and articles as the gospel truth. This was all new technology back then and the authors of such articles were not versed in the new technology or even in the terms that described it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 05:02 pm:

Royce,

"The higher water outlet / head required a higher radiator and hood..."

I don't believe that it has ever been determined that the water outlet on the Piquette removable head engine is any higher than a standard NRS water outlet height. I can tell you that I have made no such measurement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 05:30 pm:

Jerry,

I would be surprised if the article writer would have mentioned Ford in an piece specifically concerning the new mono block type engines at the Olympia (London) show. However, as I said above, without a photo or other corroboration, we won't know for sure.

I agree there are mistakes made, but usually technical articles written by reporters who dealt with automobiles extensively appear more accurate than not.

Looks like we need to find more pics and information. We do know Ford Motor Company reported selling one Landaulet in October 1907, and it was much more expensive (than an S Coupe or Roadster), and not listed under the category "Model S" as S roadsters, runabouts and coupes were.

I also find it quite interesting that articles about the "new light touring car" such as the one above list the new car as "20 hp" while accurately listing NRS as 15-18 hp. Of course I don't know for sure.....yet. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 05:31 pm:

the landaulet cars are not the same look at the windows. I just got one to put on my Russell buy the way.charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 06:11 pm:

20 horsepower if accurate means it clearly is not a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 06:13 pm:

Charlie,
Your right. Maybe the person who posted the second one on the EFR will give us more info about it?

For your Russell? Pics?

Thanks,

Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 07:59 pm:

According to Frontenac Motor Company (copy right wont allow a copy and paste)
The Model T was rated 20Hp then the formula was changed, working out to be 22.5Hp


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

Here what I can guarantee about the cars in the photo: they are all coll and I'd love to have any of the six cars that I see in the picture. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Saturday, February 22, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

Cool!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 12:10 am:

English HP ratings (RAC) placed the Ford Junior (NRS) at 22.5. Most advertising and reporting from the period used the U.S. rating, not the RAC, although on occasion the RAC is seen. When one sees 22.5 listed for Ford, it is the NRS engine. That has been my experience while reviewing English publications of the period.

I'll try to find a period conversion table.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Nebraska on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:25 am:

I forgot about this late 1907 ad in a German magazine (from another post). I don't know if the cars at the Olympia show were Model S with aftermarket bodies or "pre-T" U.S. specified. However, this ad advertises Ford's expected lineup for 1908. Both "pre-T" cars are listed at 20 hp while the Model N is listed as 15-17 hp:




Publication:



The cost of each model converted to U.S. dollars:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 10:16 am:

I noticed that BrassWorks has a radiator they labeled as One-of-a-kind:
..
..http://www.thebrassworks.net/shop/index.php?cPath=11_17&osCsid=fcffec9f2926f4390169e04cac1f013f
..
I wonder if someone out there is building a 1908 prototype ModelST?
ST_rad


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 10:23 am:

If the Brassworks radiator is for the Prototype Model ST then it doesn't really look like the ones in the old photo. In Rob's photo, the radiator looks like a Model T on the upper half and a Model NRS radiator at the bottom. The cars in the old photos probably had a Model NRS style engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:01 am:

I wonder if that Model S engine displayed between the Model S chassis and the Model T prototype has the removable head. It doesn't look like it does.


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