Original 1914 Engine Questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Original 1914 Engine Questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:50 pm:

I have the original engine from my 1914 and I want to have it rebuilt, my goal to have it mounted back into the car. (The previous owner swapped it for a '27 motor because he was 85 and it was too hard to crank start) I have a couple questions on this motor:
Engine # 471984 , cast date: 3/5/1914.
1. What does the "A 6" mean that is cast into the block in front of the water inlet? Any significance?
2. The top of the motor mount is fractured off. Can a new part be welded on to the upright to satisfactorily repair the area?
3. The top of the transmission appears to be made of aluminum. Is that correct for this motor?

I've uploaded some photos and can take more if anyone has any helpful comments before I start the tear-down
471984  1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:51 pm:

471984  2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 03:53 pm:

471984  3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Barry Fowler - Eagle River, Alaska on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 04:42 pm:

Hi Gary: I don't have an answer for your first two questions, but in answer to your third, the aluminum 'hogs head' is correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:00 pm:

A piece can be welded back on or you can replace it with another arm from another 14 pan. Is it a 14 pan? If not find the correct pan. You will need to have it straightened on KR WILSON pan jig when you are done. I have found it best to mount it in the pan jig and then do the welding repairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:09 pm:

Hi Gary,

Barry is right that the hogshead is correct. It has reinforcing ribs around the bolt holes. Be sure to check for any cracks. The magneto post is incorrect (later style). It should be a straight sided brass post. In regard to the pan ear, the best solution would be to find a NOS ear or remove a good one from another pan. Than cut off the rivets and use a large gas torch to melt the brazing to free up the old broken ear. Then reverse the process to install new ear. It's best to have this done by someone who has a pan alignment jig to get the ear in proper position and then also straighten the pan overall on the jig. I have no idea on the "A6" casting mark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:10 pm:

PS: Very nice 14 you show in your profile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:04 pm:

Thanks guys. great advice. who has the correct jig? and the replacement support bracket? any ideas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:25 pm:

The A 6 is a mold identifier. They probably had 20 or more sets of engine block molds. Castings were identified by mold number so that if a problem developed it would be easy to track down other defective ones made on the same mold on the same day using the date and mold number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:32 pm:

Thanks Royce,

I thought that might be the case on the molding marks but didn't know for sure. You taught me something new again. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:36 pm:

I think a 14 would also have a low head, this appears to be a high head.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:58 pm:

Somebody had a pan support bracket on Tbay a few days ago, but I don't see it now, so either it sold or the listing expired. Maybe they'll relist it, or someone will step up and offer you one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:06 pm:

Gary,
Send me an email at aloso@q.com
I may a solution for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:14 pm:

What Royce said is what I thought? But I did not know for sure. Thank you Royce the the good explanation.
Pan arms did change over the years, however, even later ones can be modified a bit to look more like 1914 once the engine is installed.
Replacing the arm with a good one that has no cracks is the better idea.
IF you decide to weld the top section on from another pan, it can be done. Unfortunately, that is the weakest and most stressed area in the pan arm, hence why so many broke in that area. Any welder, no matter how good (okay, awaiting arguments), will leave some material and/or temper differences near the weld which makes the piece even more inclined to break (that in the area most likely to break in the first place). The solution to this is, after the piece has been properly welded, braze some steel rod around the bend inside the arm. 5/16 or 1/4 inch steel rod usually works well. Use pieces about four inches long, from the outside end of the arm around where the edge of the frame will be, and down about 2 1/2 inches. The steel rod adds strength. Brazing attaches it with less tempering issues and a more gradual shift from gusseted to non-gusseted. Again, once the engine is installed in the car, this "fix" can hardly be seen.

I always like to hear that original or correct engines are being put into cars that have had wrong (or later) engines in them for awhile. Hopefully, you can then keep the car for many, many, years and enjoy many thousands of wonderful miles with the car. And if you eventually get old enough to need a starter? It is not necessary to put a later engine in the car (I cannot figure out why so many people do?). All that is needed is the hogshead, starter, flywheel, battery, and wiring. It has been proven that a starter can be used in a T quite a bit without a generator simply by charging the battery after a reasonable number of starts or miles.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Wolf on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 08:07 pm:

I have a couple N.O.S. supports.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 09:43 pm:

If you are going to do a rebuild on it before installing I would just go ahead and put in the starter type flywheel and coil ring now that way it would be ready for a starter anytime by changing the hogs head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 10:28 pm:

Just my thoughts, if replacing the head with the correct low head I would pull all the old two piece valves and do a valve job at that time, check springs keepers etc. freshing up with a valve job and fresh head gasket may really give an older un rebuilt engine a boost.

It will also let you see if there are any lurking issues.
Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 10:55 pm:

So that head does not belong on that motor? Does a "low" head yield more compression? Is there a mark or something that signifies a "low" v. "high" head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 11:15 pm:



High (late style) vs 'Low' head


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 11:34 pm:

The low head is only slightly higher compression, the early heads '10-'11 are claimed by design to be higher compression. Ford make changes in head compression as gasoline got worst, an early '14 head would be good. July 1914 saw head with lower compression change.

The high head came in 1917, but with the advantage of more coolant capacity, even if the compression is only 3.98:1, they work best for cooling.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:11 am:

Dan thanks for the info. Do you have a preference? If the high head holds more water, it just may be a better choice anyway


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:15 am:

Actually, I think my car has the "low" head on it. Notice on the "low" head the outlet on top appears to stick up higher while the "high" head has the appearance of the outlet being more in flush with the head. Mine definitely has the appearance of the "low" one in the photo above. any measurements to confirm the proper head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By samuel pine on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 09:00 am:

whops wrong reply


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:03 am:

Gary -- When you have the head off, it's easy to see the difference. The low head has a raised circle around the spark plug hole inside the combustion chamber. The high head does not. A pic showing the difference has been posted here and probably will be again shortly, but I didn't save it.

If you have a good radiator, you won't need the extra water capacity of the high head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:06 am:

Also, if you'll post a pic of the front end ("nose") of the crankcase, we'll be able to tell you whether you have the correct one for your '14.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:27 am:

Gary Wheeler:

The high head DOES NOT MATCH the radiator very well. If you use the high head you may have to use a flex hose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:41 am:

On the low head bolt holes are 2 1/8" deep. On the high head they're 2 3/4".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:49 am:

By the way, you didn't ask, but your serial number says your engine was the sixteenth of 1100 made on Friday, March 13, 1914.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:07 am:

Replacing the pan arm is a waste of time and energy when the ear (missing piece) can be restored using a piece from a junk pan. You will have to have welding equipment to remove the arm so you might as well use it to repair the ear. Wayne's suggestion to beef up the underside of the ear would certainly be additional insurance. Welding the ear piece on is an easy job compared to the agony of replacing the entire arm with pan distortion and alignment issues. Note: You gotta know how to weld.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:18 am:

So... the engine was cast on 3/5/14 and installed into the chassis on 3/13/1914? Ill get some measurements of the head and post a photo of the "nose" later after work so you can steer me in the right direction. Thanks for all the input! This is quite a resource for all us new to the "T". I just don't want to make "rookie" mistakes with this motor. I'm so glad to have the original engine and I want to be sure it's restored properly, correctly and mated back to its original chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:32 am:

The block was cast on March 5 and the engine was assembled on Friday the 13th. The assembled engine would have been installed in a chassis within a few days. I doubt that the car would have been made the same day as the engine. More likely they would keep plenty of assembled engines ready to put into cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:05 pm:

Gary,I looked at your profile and that is nice looking car!! Bud in Wheeler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 03:35 pm:

Okay. Bud finally talked me into it. I looked at your profile photo.

That IS a great looking car!

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:34 pm:

So it turns out you are correct…it is a "high" head. 2 3/4" bolt holes:
High head


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:36 pm:

And here's her nose:

front pan


(What a gal! High head and long nose!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:43 pm:

That's the "alligator nose" pan, so it's the correct one for your '14. It's worth putting some effort into fixing it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary M. Wheeler on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 08:29 pm:

Thanks. I would prefer to fix this original, correct pan. So I'm thinking if I can purchase the NOS support from Richard Wolf, I can (hopefully) grind the original rivets off, and send the pan with the new support out to Andy Loso to jig it and rivet/weld the NOS bracket onto my pan. Sound like a good plan? This way I won't have an extra pan in the garage for the next 20 years!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 09:48 pm:

Sounds like a good plan, Gary. Those "alligator" pans are beginning to get scarce.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 01:22 pm:

Those arms are brazed in place. Removing the rivets is just the first step. Next you have to heat the blazes out of it to remove it. It takes a lot of heat over a fairly large area so be prepared to spend some quality time with your torch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 02:46 pm:

Lol you have to heat the 'brazes' out of it even. =P


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 06:44 pm:

Alright. I have only been playing with model Ts for a bit over 45 years now. This is the first time I can remember hearing the term "alligator" pan. Narrow-nose covers several variations of early pans. Teacup or T-cup for earlier ones with larger drains. Seven-rivet for even earlier ones with the seven rivets in each pan arm. And of course there are the one-piece pans.
So what is an "alligator" pan and what else am I missing?
Thanks guys.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 09:08 pm:

Wayne -- I've heard the term "alligator pan" a lot to refer to the narrow-nosed ones used through 1916 or so. Must be a regional thing. The later ones had a larger diameter crankshaft pulley, so they need a wider-nosed crankcase. The very early ones have other names, such as teacup or one-piece, as you mentioned, but we don't see those around here. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 09:12 pm:

If you have an alligator pan on an engine with an aluminum hogshead in a car that replaced the horse, you might be ready to start a zoo!


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