Driven plate holes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Driven plate holes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 05:50 pm:

I was installing the driven plate, clutch disc's and clutch ring, when I noticed that the holes where the clutch ring pins stick thru are rather oval rather and not round. I have an earlier plate from a 1922 and those holes are round, but still get a generous amount of clearance. Is this a problem? Should I look for a different plate? The six mounting holes are in good shape and this tightens up fine. The groove near the pin hole in the second picture is not a crack, but appears to be a punch mark.



Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:02 pm:

If you have a better plate use it but, this one does not look that bad. The pressure ring pins do not seem to be protruding enough through the plate.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:36 pm:

Someone has botched the order of the clutch discs earlier in this transmissions life.. Be careful to always end the clutch pack with a large disc towards the push ring, if not some of the power transfer will go through the edges of the three holes in the driven plate instead of all of it through the lugs in the brake drum.

If the holes in the driven plate are too wide there's a risk for the adjustment screws in the clutch arms missing the push ring's pins.. Drilling the holes round again and change to oversize pins would be a solution, but finding useable replacement parts is probably easier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:38 pm:

You will not be able to use the 22 narrow drum plate on the wide drum setup. The drive plate is not bolted down could be why it's not even.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:47 pm:

I realize that I can not use the '22 plate. I just had one and used it to compare the hole size. Roger brings up a good point I had never thought of what he mentioned with the last disk being a large one.
Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 06:47 pm:

Mike, the earlier pressure ring has larger pins, if you have the 5/16 you could find the 3/8 and drill out the oblong holes to fit. Problem solved cheap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:08 pm:

Isn't there a crack running out form the hole in the second picture?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:31 pm:

Andy, Looks like a crack but it's some kind of punch mark.
Joe, I never noticed the different sized pins. I tried the larger pin ring and it almost fits in these holes. Just a little filing on one of them and it slips on. I think I have the solution.
Thanks
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 07:39 pm:

Hi Mark,

I agree with Stephen, that one is useable but one with "rounder" holes would be prefered. I have seen far worse come out of running engines. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:12 am:

I generally toss them if the holes are wallowed out much. When running in high gear there is pressure on the pins and nothing can move... But in Low, Reverse, or neutral, the clutches are free and the ring can slop around in the holes... The more the holes are wallowed out, the more travel the pins have when they slop around in the holes... The more travel they have, the more inertia they can build, and the harder they can hammer on the edges of the holes (when they make contact).

On driving plates with worn push ring holes, I have also occasionally found real excessive wear between the fingers and the pins that hold the fingers to the driving plate.

With that being said, 26/27 driving plates in good shape can be hard to find. Most of them generally have one or a combination of two/three of the following; sloppy push ring holes, loose shaft, or the square for the u-joint is worn sloppy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:00 pm:

Roger has the correct answer to why the holes get elongated. It's important to have the discs in the right order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 12:00 pm:

Another related item to consider. There are TWO different push rings. There is one used from '25-27 that uses smaller diameter pins. The parts book doesn't even show this, although it's probably in the bulletins, and I don't feel like checking it either for this post!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Killecut on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 12:45 pm:

Larry, you are right, I just ran into this putting my 24 transmission together. The drum, narrow has the removable lugs like the 26,27 and I had to use the later discs also. Nice to have a lot of parts around when you run into these issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 05:38 pm:

I think it is just a mismatch of parts either #3321 trans driving plate assembly or #3336 trans clutch push ring are incorrect also there does not appear to be the correct number of discs on the other side as the pins are not protruding through far enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 - 07:28 pm:

Dave, you got my attention. I know that we have 25 plates, 12 small and 13 large. In fact two of us counted them out. I have assembled the clutch using the larger pin push ring. With it all assembled the tops of the pins are about flush with the top of the driven plate.


How much of the pin should be standing proud of the top of the driven plate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 - 10:07 am:

I have a 15 transmission on my bench and the pins are about 1/4 proud. That is the small amount of travel to release the spring pressure. The threaded portion of the fingers should not go through the driving plate but only contact the push ring. I am just wondering if you have an early housing where there should be 13 small and 13 large with a distance plate, that may make up the difference. If you have any other housings around measure the depth some are deeper than others. Good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 - 09:34 pm:

I disassembled my transmission and the clutch disks come flush to the top on the inner housing. My unit is somewhat earlier '15 with a distance plate, 13 small and 13 large disks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 - 09:59 pm:

If you get a chance can you get a picture of the disks in the basket?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:10 am:

A little off topic, but I just bought a nos late narrow brake drum off ebay, which has the shoes, and uses the clutch discs that Dan mentioned. I sure would like to find the driving plate that goes with it! It uses the push ring I mentioned above with the smaller pins, because the driving plate has smaller holes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 04:12 pm:

Unfortunately my digital camera fell and broke the best I can do is snail mail with photos. Your casting number is 730B and mine is 730. To add more confusion, the part number (3321) is carried through the years and the assigned factory number is #749. Part number 3336 push ring factory assigned number for 1915 is #704 and for later years is #770. I know that there was a transitional change in early 1916 when the distance plate was discontinued and the number of disks and configuration was changed. Early units had 13 small and 13 large plus a distance plate totaling 27 pcs. They started with the distance plate followed by a small disk and alternated to the top with a large disk. Later years started with a large disk and finished with a large disk for a total of 25 pcs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 06:11 pm:

That's OK, always remember to wipe the oil off your hands before picking up the camera. I pulled the clutch apart. I measure about 1 7/16" between the top of the basket and base of the drum. Hard to read the tape in this picture.

I have 25 disks, 13 large and 12 small. With all the disks in the drum, you can see that there is about 1/4" between the top of the disk stack and the top of the basket.

When the push ring and the plate are installed the push ring pins are flush with the top of the driven plate. Is this how yours looks?
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 07:51 pm:

I was thinking, could my disks be worn out? If each disk is 0.005" under size times 25 disks that's 1/8". How thick should the clutch disks be? I mic'ed a few of my disks. Most are 0.040" some are 0.039" and some 0.041". Now is the time to change them out if needed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 01:20 pm:

I measured the depth of my basket and it is
1 27/64" the disks are .040 - .045 average about .043. I have a total of 27 pcs in the arrangement 13 small 13 large and a distance plate. My disk arrangement comes flush to the top of the clutch disk drum. I notice in one photo that you have a late (26-27) brake drum and an early brake band. Something appears to be incorrect in that arrangement. Mine has the round disks and yours has the hex disks. It is hard to tell where the discrepancy is but there is something amis some where. With the slight difference in the depth 1 7/16 to 1 27/64 is about .017 and if each disk had a .003 difference X 25 = .075 + .017 = .092 that would bring it up almost to spec. Try an early basket to match the brake band and see what happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Zahorik on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:15 pm:

My disks average about 0.040", so that accounts for about 1/16th. I called Lang's and they measured a new disk. Steve said they measured about 0.042". He also said that the new disks are a little different from the originals. He thought that the originals were about 0.045". If that is true that would account for 1/8". I figure that since the spring can still pressure the push ring without being obstructed, it will work. I would think that if the push ring pins were below the driven plate then some changes would have to be made, disks replaced.
Thanks for the help
Mike


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