Loose spokes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: Loose spokes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ralph Cunningham on Sunday, February 23, 2014 - 11:41 pm:

Anybody ever use 1/4" x 3 inch long button head wood screws in the ends of loose spokes ? Would take some custom washers so the force would be on the flat part of the rim..
I have some old wheels here, might try it tomorrow..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:07 am:

If a wheel collapses while you're driving, the results can very inconvenient and disappointing. For steel-felloe wheels, I'd buy new spokes and press them in myself. For wood-felloe wheels I'd have one of the professional wheel shops handle it. I'm notoriously cheap, but I'm not risking my life to save a few bucks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 02:43 am:

If the tenon is loose you can drill the old tenon out to a depth of about 3/4 in to the spoke and drive in a new tenon size for size.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:18 am:

Ralph,

Do as Steve say: do not mess up with spokes. If they are loose replace them or make your wheels be rebuild !!!!!

good luck
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:44 am:

Steve hit the nail right on the head. It's so ridiculously inexpensive to have a wooden wheel expertly rebuilt and made virtually new by Stutzman's Wheel Shop that any less thorough option makes no sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 09:52 am:

Ralph I'm with Steve Andre and Bob (BTW nice to see u r back Bob)You may also want to review my fathers favorite cliché in my profile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ralph Cunningham on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:29 am:

Thanks for all the good replies


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 10:33 am:

People would use this and that to try to tighten up wooden spokes. Over the years in buying old wheels for parts I've seen button head screws, 1/4" lag screws, wooden dowls used to replace the ends of the spokes and etc. I guess it worked but it certainly wasn't the best way to do the repair for sure.
Nowdays its best to replace the questionable spoke with a new one or rebuild the whole wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:07 am:

Here's my two cents.happy.gif
My Two Cents.jpg

With a lawyer under every rock these day's it pays to replace defective parts rather then jury rig them. An ounce of prevention is worth several pounds of lawyers.happy.gif

No one wants to be singing "you picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel" as their driving down the road with the modern's. happy.gif


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:08 am:

Here's my two cents.


With a lawyer under every rock these day's it pays to replace defective parts rather then jury rig them. An ounce of prevention is worth several pounds of lawyers.

No one wants to be singing "you picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel" as their driving down the road with the modern's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 11:17 am:

I agree with the suggestion made by David Menzies...replace the tenon with an equivalently sized hardwood dowel. However when I do it I drill a slightly oversize hole (and a bit deeper) in the spoke and epoxy the dowel in. This provides good alignment and the overflow epoxy seals the spoke-felloe interface, thus sealing the gap, if any and eliminating any endplay in the spoke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:22 pm:

I'm brave enough to shim and glue but would not cut into good wood. I tried the screw trick and the spokes split out around the screws. Drilling a spoke is weakening it. I have gotten many miles out of washers at the tenon and shims at the hub but would not recommend it for safety concerns. New spokes are cheap insurance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 12:33 pm:

as far as drilling out the tenon and replacing it with an equal size dowel pin, how are going to do that? on a new spoke A 1/2" tenon is actually slightly larger than 1/2" this provides a crush fit and the part of the tenon that sticks through the hole actually "mushrooms" a little bit helping to hold the tenon in place I don't see how you duplicate that with a 1/2" dowel pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 02:36 pm:

G.R.Cheshire
That is what the excess epoxy is for that flows into the radius around the tenon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 03:01 pm:

Seems to me replacing a loose tenon by countersinking the spoke and driving in a new dowel with epoxy is a good fix. I've restored a lot of wood felloe wheels, mostly by banding. Some by banding and shims. While not a permanent fix, they hold up well for a few years at least. At the speeds and roads we drive today, they are fine.
Most important with wood felloe wheels is that the felloe not come out of the rim. I've seen rivets work loose and the felloe so loose it could fall out of the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ralph Cunningham on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:41 pm:

Mine can't..1/4-20 button heads in between each 2 spokes. with acorn nuts to hold them in...Did this when one front wheel came apart turning into the driveway...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ralph Cunningham on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 06:42 pm:

You can see the nuts in the front wheels in the profile picture..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, February 24, 2014 - 07:37 pm:

Ralph,

You seriously need some new spokes. Be safe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 - 10:08 pm:

I turned the tenon stock on my lathe just a little over size so it is a moderate tap in fit because of the tight fit I also drill a small hole in the center as a relief to allow air to escape. I don't believe this procedure will cause any weakness to the wheel. It should be assured that the remainder of the wood is firm and only the tenon is loose. Some early spokes have only 3/8" tenons and they can be enlarged to 1/2" with out any sacrifice to the rim or spoke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 01:51 am:

David,
every time you drill a hole in the spoke you are weaken it further. The reason the spokes are loose is the wood is drying out and start to rotten.
JUST KEEP IT SAFE AND PLEASE MAKE YOU WHEELS BE REBUILD WITH NEW SPOKES !!!!!!!!

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 02:13 am:

Forgot Ralph in the last message.

Just think about it ; the $500.- you will spend on new spokes will not pay the bill if something will go wrong with the old spokes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 09:59 am:

How loose are they and what are the wheels being used for? If you're wanting to drive on them, I'd fix them. If you're just wanting a set of rollers to move a chassis around the shop, a quick fix should be fine. I'd rather not drive loose spokes any real distance if I had a choice.

If memory serves, there was someone who talked about buying old spokes for the taller wheels and cutting them down on a lathe to fit the later 21 inch wheels, in order to preserve the original patina look. Maybe you could sell your spokes to someone wanting to try that and put those few bucks toward new spokes. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:09 am:

I think all this cautionary language is speculation. I have never seen a spoke broken off at the tenon, either wood or steel fellow. I have seen running cars missing complete spokes. Although its not something I would do, they ran down the road. The fact that the tenons are a small diameter proves to me there is not much pressure on them. If someone were to counter sink the spoke down about an inch and press in a hard wood dowel with epoxy, the fix would be as strong as the original. Of course the larger diameter spokes used in the later years would be the safest choice to do this type of repair. I don't see a problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:41 am:

I think that if a guy can get a new set of tires on the late model or new truck he drives he can afford to get a nice set of respoked wheels for his T.
Driving on old tires is one thing but driving with loose patched up spokes is downright dangerous.
Some might can be repaired but they would have to be solid and not starting to get the old age shrink lines on them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 11:47 am:

I am growing weary of all of the grannyism about spokes and that they have to be new. I have a lot of experience with restoring spokes over the past 40 years and there are sound methods for salvaging otherwise *junk spokes*. I guess I did most of this when new spokes were not readily available and restoration was what we did...instead of buying everything new/repro/whatever. This hobby has lost its fun now that one can reproduce an entire car with new stuff. Where are the skills, ingenuity, craftsmanship that makes this a great hobby?
Anyway, spooking (not spoking) everyone about all this safety scare is unrealistic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 07:28 pm:

Amen John McGinnis! Guess I have always had to do my own fixes for to long on a limited budget. Because my budget was limited though didn't mean I did not do it right or safely. I finely did build my own spoke lathe last winter and have blanks ready to turn now. Have about 50 bucks in the lathe and 15 bucks for 100 hickory blanks. My idea of the hobby is to do everything I can myself. I don't have money to throw at a project. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 12:52 pm:

I can't argue with wanting to fix the existing wheel...God bless the restorers wanting to keep originality. At the same time, if these are the wheels in your profile, then putting in screws will not fix the wheel. It will address the symptom...until the wheel breaks. If these were demountables, I'd expect the tenons to be pounded small. Since these are clinchers, I'll bet the looseness is mostly in "length" and not diameter.

If the felloes need to be fastened to the clincher rims with multiple screws and nuts, and the spokes are loose, all the screws in the world will not fix shrunken wood. At this point, the felloes have shrunk across the grain and dowels and epoxy, or more screws aren't going to fix that.

I've seen very nice repairs done by one of our club members thusly:

dismount clincher from wheel
fixture the wheel and true the out-of-round-felloes to the bearing (rotational axis) by rotating it against a belt sander
laminate a thin strip of maple around the perimiter of the wheel
fixture the wheel in a mill and true the cured wood to somewhat larger than the ID of the clincher rim
press wheel onto clincher rim into place and true for runout
rerivet rim to felloe

the wood is tight, the felloes are round, the spokes and hub are compressed, and the wheel is concentric to the bearings and will function and be structurally similar to when was new.

If the spokes are not under compression and the rim under tension, the repair is a bandaid.

My phylosophy to this hobby is two fold: I'm too poor to afford cheap tools...I buy or make good tools and keep them for life rather than buy cheap ones every time one breaks. And, I'd rather go for a drive every day and fix the car once a year than fix the car every day and drive it once a year. Anyone can accomplish safe reliability by fixing the problem (root cause)and not the symptom (and you don't necessarily have to spend a bunch of $$ to do it, either).

Best of luck with your project!

scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 03:34 pm:

Have any of you, telling this fellow that his wheels are o.k., don't fall for scare tactics, do it yourself, etc., actually seen his wheels in person? Have you read where he says that one has actually fallen apart already? Do you see the hardware store bolts now holding one wheel together?

How in good conscience can you tell this guy his wheels are safe? You haven't seen them and you don't know that! I haven't seen his wheels in person either. If I did, I might tell him they can be repaired. I have repaired my own in the past with good results. But, I can't, in good conscience tell Ralph his wheels are safe, based on his profile photo, the fact that one has fallen apart already and the rest are loose. I guess you're seeing something I'm not. The best advice that I can give him is to get new spokes. If I'm mistaken, I've erred on the side of safety.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 06:51 am:

Jerry, you are right somewhat. I was not telling him his old spokes were safe, he was asking if it was feasible to try and repair some other wheels he had lying around. I did not know if the ones he had were clinchers, wood felloes or not, so pm'd him to say. Just trying to help a guy out with out having to spend a ton of money. KGB


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