I have a ford Model T 1909 that is in good condition, but could use a little TLC. i would rate it above average. I am curious to see what these are worth. I know they are popular but I am unsure about the price and wondering if anybody could tell me more about it, where they are popular, if they are popular, and what auctions are good to bring them to. Thanks a lot, Paul
Can you post some pictures? Be sure to shrink the file size down to 195K or less per picture. Thanks!
p.s. If you post pictures, be prepared for many comments about what is / is not 1909-correct on the car - take them as they are intended; helpful comments, not criticism.
I am not sure how to shrink the size of my picture. Any tips?
You can email them to me at email@example.com and I will resize them and post them here if you wish.
Sounds good, thank you.
Ok guys, here are the pics that Paul sent me, let the observations and questions begin!
I'll begin by saying that there are very few "real" 1909 Model Ts. Meaning, all the parts on the car date to 1909. Many hobbyists through the years have desired to have a Model T from the first year of its production but were not fortunate enough to come across one for sale. In that case, many have "created" their own "1909" Model T by using parts from later T's. Since Model T's, in some respects, did not change dramatically through their production run, many parts from later cars are very similar... but not the same.
In lots of cases, cars were titled as 1909's, owners called them 1909's, their heirs were certain that they were 1909's, (cause that's what grandpa said), when in fact, not one component dated to 1909. This is an example of such a car. Simply put, this is not a 1909 Model T. It was built up from parts spanning many years of later Model T production. The body appears to be "home built", meaning not a Ford production, or period aftermarket body. There is some value, but it would be a fraction of the value of a 1909.
I think Jerry covered it, just a mok-up, lots of late running gear on this one.
Wow but it looks great. I would like to hear the story of this car, where it came from and how you acquired it
Well boys, start picking.
It would be a good car to have fun with.
There is a reason 1909 parts are rare. Quite frankly, they suck in comparison to later, more proven parts. As soon as better parts came out, the early pain in the XXX stuff got junked. This is a nice looking car and I wouldn't mind being seen in it after a little TLC. Someone will be real happy with it, and they won't have to worry about having to dismantle the whole car if a rod begins to rattle with a one piece pan. Neither will they need be concerned with the front axle rolling over and collapsing the wishbone. Did I mention not having to dismount a tire from the wheel and patch it on the side of the road? Don't even get me started about dealing with the bands through a square hole trans cover. I appreciate the value and rarity or early T parts, I have handled a lot of it, built a few open valve T engines. I like to drive any model T, but some don't want to deal with the challenges of real early stuff. My sincere respect and admiration for the guys who put a great deal of effort and money into completely correct early T's. I hope this brass roadster gets back out on the road and enjoyed. That is priceless.
Well said Erik. Initially I thought Paul was the new owner, but after re reading, it's not clear. Either way, i hope someone does a little work and has it on the road to enjoy.
Just my humble opinion, and I did build a "1909" from later parts a few years ago. I think one could build a car like that for 10,000 to 12,000. If that engine were an early open valve engine in an early chassis, it would be worth 15,000 or more itself but I doubt that is what is there. My '09 looks like the real thing to the untrained eye and is worth maybe 15,000 on a good day. A real '09 would be 30,000 to 40,000 I would think. The condition of the engine and transmission would also be a factor. I know more knowledgeable folks might look at it differently.
Paul, if you can open the hood and send me some good photos of both sides of the engine, I will be happy to resize them and post them here.
Does anyone else have a photo request?
What's under the hood? If it has an early frame, one piece pan and open valve engine it probably was an early car that was updated from time to time. If not it is probably an assembled car. I have three '14's two of which are real '14's. The third one is a '14 because that's what the previous owner decided to call it. The only thing that is '14 is the rear axle housing and the frame. I am slowly working to make it a correct '14 but when all is said and done it will still be an assembled car. Notwithstanding, I enjoy using it as much as my other cars and I would love to have your '09 Paul. Use it and enjoy it. If you want to make it a complete correct '09 fine but if you don't want to put a ton of money into it that's fine too! I think it looks great and I just hope it runs as well as it looks so you can enjoy driving it!
"Does anyone else have a photo request"...
Yes please post a photo of a hot blonde in the passenger seat!
I just ran across the Craigslist add for this T in Indiana.
Imagine that.. LOL LOL
Well, apparently Paul has already made up his mind as to value.
Maybe the other cars in the background are included in the price.
You'd think at near 50 Grand someone could find a real camera... and a real 1909.
He listed them on Craigslist 4 days ago.
It sounds to me like we have a Picker-Flipper, Hope he paid to much for it.
Ken,At least Wings!! Bud in Wheeler.
And the back fender isn't even straight!! gota be a discount for that.
Can somebody please turn the steering wheel over! It's on upside down. I saw this on Craig's a few days ago, thought neat... Then lol at the price.
It's on ebay also.
He has it listed on ebay without a reserve, so it'll sell unless he backs out of the deal. He might be surprised at the actual value of the car.
Also, he just joined ebay today. My bet is that he will end the auction early. Any takers?
From the ebay listing it's not real clear if he is even the owner, it says it is one of 20 cars from a collection that he is selling? For sure it will end early with an "item no longer available" or similar statement.
I quit bidding on cars on ebay for that very reason. I was bidding on an Autowa and during the night he pull the car from the auction. That is BS that they allow this to happen.
Interesting spot to list it on ebay! under Toys & Hobbies!!
I'm always struck by the irony of people spending big bucks on a car, asking big bucks for it, and trying to sell it with crappy phone pictures. I'm not trying to be cruel, but it's not hard to shoot good pictures, especially when they're digital and it doesn't cost anything to keep shooting until you get good ones.
I couldn't agree more, Steve. I'm always surprised by people who aren't interested in maximizing their sale with the use of decent pics. A low end Nikon 20 megapixel camera is less than a hundred bucks for Pete's sake.
My other peeve is those folks who upload pics that are sideways to the perspective. It takes like 10 seconds to correct the angle before ULing and they can't be bothered? I immediately get concerned about what kind of short cuts they also took in the care of the item they are trying to sell.
Well I don't think anyone caught it yet, but my first impression of it was that this was a model of a car, not a full size car.
Look at it again and say what you think.
I don't think so, Herb. Not unless the garage door and the other car are models too.
I wonder how many black cars Ford made in 1909.
Reading down thru this string I see only one person, Richard E, actually tried to answer one of the questions the seller had asked (although Jerry V was very cordial in his assessment). It was obvious the guy didn't really know what he had which is why he came here to begin with. Wouldn't it have reflected better on this group (this "collective" of T experts) to have answered his questions first, then offer opinions as to why the evidence in the photos indicated a different car than he thought it was? His ads seem to indicate he is less interested in what it is vs. what it is worth.
Well, if the Encyclopedia is correct, #3019 a Roadster was the only BLACK car in the first 69,000 T's. Engine 69,000 was just an engine, and that was on Sept. 28, 1909.
The body isn't correct and the upholstery isn't correct, either.
I believe the value is set on ebay, high bid of $152.50. Based on the looks of the car $152 is about top dollar. I also wonder why the pictures are so poor, is it intentional? Why not show the motor?, because its a '25 with starter motor?
p/s I do hope that the purchaser did not go in uninformed and really pay 50 grand.
That's funny, Herb - that was my first take as well - like someone was trying for too much macro on the close up and it blurred.
Hi folks, Thanks for your input. My name is Paul. Just to let everyone know I really appreciate all the input. I bought this car in a court ordered sale. the previous owners are getting a divorce and had plenty of time to get rid of them. I paid a agreed price for all of them. I'm in the real estate business not into hot rod and old cars. I don't even own a tool box. I am trying to figure out a fair price to sell this at. I have it on ebay and craigslist. I thought I might try to find out what It would cost to restore it to as close to 100% if possible. I am looking for a fair offer to cash out of this. I know this car is far from perfect but is a good looker in my eyes.I will send more pics from my phone. my phone number is 260-609-7392 plz send me any info that you think will help me with my decision.
Mike is right, no one has really set a value for what it is to be informative for Paul's question, If I was to build an 09 replica as this is, lets say a 20's running gear going by wheels, springs, front engine mount etc, a body kit, brass lights etc and finishing off, maybe no change out of $20,000.00
We had a 1914 speedster only a few weeks ago, build to about the same specs as this 09 sell for 25K and I think most of you know how much dearer T stuff is in Australia, 50K is way out of the question. JMO.
Paul, some clear (in focus) pictures showing details would help. This car may or may not have some 1909 parts on it, but from what we can see so far it appears a mix of parts from various years. For example, the wheels are post-1919. That doesn't mean it isn't a nice car, but it does mean it isn't fifty grand nice. The comment by Jerry V. is on the mark. If you give us a good look at the engine compartment from both sides, the controls, the front and rear axles and springs, etc., we can better figure out what may be 1909 about it, if anything. The engine serial number (on the side, above the water inlet) will give us the date the engine was made.
I don't know what the other cars are, and I don't know what you paid for them. However it does look like you should have done your homework before placing a bid (unless you got them all REALLY cheap).
I do not see ONE piece on that car that has much chance of being original 1911, let alone anything earlier. The fenders, radiator and body are probably reproductions. Most of the rest of it is 1919 or later (except for the lamps, they appear to be 1913/14).
The sad fact is, nobody should expect to get back all of what they spend to build any antique automobile. And that could be built for less than $15,000. (I figure, as is, it is worth between $7000 and $10,000) It does NOT qualify for HCCA rules, although most regional groups would accept it and even National Tours probably would not tell you to go away. Real 1912 and earlier parts get very expensive very fast. The earlier they are, the more expensive they are.
Model Ts are wonderful and fun cars! There is lots of room in the hobby for many kinds of model Ts. There is lots of room for your model T. Be honest with any potential buyers. Regardless of what the title says or anyone else has said, it is not a real 1909.
Most local model T clubs have several cars like this that they know of. They attend tours and shows and have a lot of fun. But don't even think about trying to make it correct unless you really want to lose more money. No matter what you wanted to turn it into. If you want to make it anywhere near correct, you would do better to start finding the correct pieces and build another car entirely. Then you would have two cars if you want to sell them.
Good luck! If you don't want to join in with one of the most fun and educational hobbies on the planet, and sell it. I do hope you find it a good home. That car could be great to enjoy! As long as the owner understands what it is, and is not.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
If the seller is trying to pass that off as a 1909 would they want clear pictures?? Stung 20 years ago so i remember!! Bud in Wheeler.
As has been pointed out - it is not a 1909, therefore you can't compare it to the value of a real 1909 roadster. It is a put together car made from later parts. The only thing 1909ish is the sheet metal and radiator which are probably reproductions, and the brass lights, carbide generator and horn which may be real.
The body is not an accurate reproduction of a 1909 roadster. It is something that somebody built. The proportions are wrong. The top looks terrible. The upholstery was not done very well. The firewall looks like a piece of stained plywood and it has some home made hood former.
So, what is it worth? A lot of that depends on the mechanical condition. Has been rebuilt mechanically and is ready to tour, or is it a pile of worn out parts. If it is a drivable car, rebuilt motor, rebuilt front and rear ends, I would say it's worth maybe $6000 - $8000. If's worn out mechanically and needs to be completely rebuilt, then maybe $3000 - $4000.
It is what it is - but it's not what it is.
Just my honest opinion.
I wold say that if an un-informed person was to buy this car for big bucks and then finds out it is not what they believed it was represented as, there would be some serious friction............
Paul, a couple of commits, first it's OK if you're a newbie, and fessing up about it here. Unless at some point you think you want to "run" with this crowd, considering how you came into possession of all these cars and this one. I say just let the eBay auction run it's course. Do add better pictures, some of the engine, both sides, the rear axle and undercarriage. You'll get help here. Even though it's not completely original 1909, it's still a Model T and still can be enjoyed. I know I'll keep an eye on the auction and maybe I'll get it at a price I can afford. J
I would place its real-world value at around $7500 if it runs and drives well.
Paul; As stated by others, setting an absolute value is not possible at this time as there is not enough information to make a reasonable guess. A buyer would have to assume the worse if they are not able to hear it run and see it move under its own power. Perhaps there's someone on this forum close by that could evaluate this T and post what they found.
I would suggest that you check out the chapter information on this site and contact someone to help you start and run this car. It may very well double its value in a very short time.
All things considered, known and unknown, and no on site inspection, 3,000-5,000 would be ballpark.
Running good and able to move under power would bump it to 6,000-7,500. Do not expect more than 10,000 from even an uninformed buyer.
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask more question. Most of us don't bite and only want to help as much as possible.
Thanks again, I will get more photos on asap. At this point I'm really curious what the heck I have. I will take the price off of craigslist of $50,000.00 and note that this car is a put together car with many years of diff parts. I'm certainly not trying to trick the pros. Lol you guys have been a big help... Thanks
Paul, just email the pics to me like before, and I'll resize them and post them.
OK, Thank you, Much appreciated.
Paul, take a look at this 1909, I think it is more correct. Also pictures look better outside on green grass under a bright blue sky. Frame the car in the center and down play any distracting objects in the backround.
That auction shows that a real 1909 T is worth some serious bucks. However, most T's are worth $5-10K. A real '09 engine alone is worth more than that today.
It appears that Paul made an honest mistake by believing that he has an '09 T, which is probably what he was told by the seller.
No harm, no foul.
Paul seems like a real "stand up guy." One never knows. I hope there isn't too much money put into this.
It's a shame that Paul was vilified for his initial lack of knowledge on the subject. Really promotes the hobby and the club in a great light.
Doug - my thoughts EXACTLY. Guy comes here looking for assistance and is subjected to a bunch of smarmy comments. Frankly, I'm amazed he posted a second time and thanked people for their input; if it had been me in his situation, after reading some of the replies above, I would have deleted my account and walked away.
There was a thread going a couple of days ago regarding whether or not future generations would want these cars. I posted a comment regarding attitudes and demeanor of some people in this hobby - how they need to work on their interpersonal skills and BE NICE (particularly to the new folks). Some of the snide comments above are PERFECT illustrations of what I was talking about. I've been around the hobby 40 years now and there are some great people in it - truly wonderful, friendly, helpful folks. Those type of people are all over this forum on a daily basis. Unfortunately, this hobby also has it's fair share of smug, self-righteous, downright snarky types who love to paint themselves as "experts" at the expense of others. Sarcasm and humiliation are their preferred wrenches. And like their friendly counterparts, those characters are also on this forum. Shame on you guys.
Paul does seem like a very nice Gentleman. I called him when I saw the add to see if be had other Ts for sale from his collection. He did not. As we talked about his car, it was obvious he didn't have an understanding as to its worth or not.
I suggested he ask this group about it, as you guys would know much better than I would.
He seems like a truthful, forthright guy who is trying to make a living for his family. I'm glad we are back in helpful mode as a group. Also, I'm sure the remarks that seemed caustic were meant to be humerous.
It still looks like it would be a fun car to own, and I hope he does well with price. It will only increase the value of our own cars.
Ron, after seeing your comments I went back and read this whole thing from the top. I do detect a little snark, but I think most of the comments weren't meant that way. Mine weren't, but sometimes a lame attempt at written humor doesn't read as intended. If I came across as sarcastic I apologize. I agree with the gist of your remarks, and the classic example is the wave of abuse and paranoid delusions that drove a thirteen-year-old newcomer off this forum a couple of years ago. Some folks here are always positive and helpful, and the rest of us would do well to emulate them.
Thank you so much for your last two sentences!!!!
(P.S. The first 4 were pretty good too.)
This is slightly off topic, and even slightly apart from the most recent discussion, and I'll no doubt be chastised for this, but it might be a place to mention something that has always kind of bothered me. I do think Paul's inquiry has been answered, so here goes:
I try to keep my mouth shut as I don't want to be called "spelling police", but I do think that some folks should consider something.......
As long as Steve Jelf brought up something akin to forum "etiquette", there is something that I feel should be considered when posting on or forum:
I think that we should try to remember that there are Model "T" folks all over the world (literally) that use the forum, and some of them that have a real struggle with English. I'm probably more aware of this than some, because I have a Japanese daughter-in-law that tries very hard to keep improving her English, partly by just using it on her computer as well as reading and speaking it.
We all make mistakes and "typos" for sure, but I really think that if something's worth writing about, we should try to consider proper spelling, punctuation, grammar, and maybe avoiding "slang" terms. Think about it, when one of us "yanks" (I'm doing it now, but I'm mostly talking to "yanks" here) don't like something and say that "it sucks", some Model "T" restorer in some third-world country who's just trying to "learn" on this forum, might be considering hooking up his vacuum guage to see if what's being talked about that "sucks", really DOES suck!
In fact, I think if someone is in such a hurry to post a comment that he only has time to use only lower case letters with absolutely no punctuation at all,.....well,.....it makes it hard for us U.S.A. guys to read, and nearly impossible for "T" guys in other parts of the world that struggle with English.
Just my thoughts, for what it's worth,......harold
Perhaps there is a problem with the education level of some Model T folks. Besides being sloppy, some may not know punctuation, syntax, grammar, spelling, etc.
Message board postings are always fraught with the peril of misunderstanding. In general, its best to give every post/listing, etc. the benefit of the doubt until you have "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of certainty about someone/something. That goes for reading AND writing posts.
Body language, facial expressions, vocal tone and context are so important to human communication that it makes passing judgement based on a few written sentences here and there really dangerous.
Steve Jelf - your good humor is always recognizable as such and could not really be mistaken for anything else. Cannot recall a post of yours that was not either helpful or entertaining (usually both). I'm not one of those who is easily offended or overly sensitive - quite the opposite. Needs to be a pretty overt swipe for me to take notice and there are a few in this thread (as evidenced by several people, besides me, who took note and made reference to them above).
"Perhaps there is a problem with the education level of some Model T folks."
Well, that's not the least bit elitist is it.
Do you mean that to be humorous John? I hope so.
Thanks Wes, I was wondering what a real1909 model T looks like. I thought I had a 1909. But after joining this forum, I quickly was informed otherwise. That looks like $50,000.00 vehicle to me. It's beautiful. Thanks again for the pics.
Do you think it is humorous? I think it is sad that we are possibly reading the product of our education system.
Paul, I'm sorry that yours didn't turn out to be a real 1909, that would have been a great score.
Your car is still nice, with some more pics the folks here will be able to give you a more accurate assessment of the value, and who knows, maybe someone here will PM you with a mutually agreeable offer (not me, my garage is already full ).
No, I don't find it humorous in the least. I find your apparent arrogance less humorous still.
There are plenty of guys on here who can't spell or write well, for a variety of reasons. Some had to leave school to work on the farm, others had crummy schools. Who cares the reason. If I can understand what you are saying, be it perfect sentences or by drawing stick figures in the dirt, I will share a beer with you and listen to your story.
Ed - Thank You. I'm not perfect but I can usually get by. I've also had some very good friends who for a variety of reasons did not read or write well. That never influenced my appreciation of them or their contributions.
I feel sorry for the man who only knows one way to spell a word.
Michael, unfortunately, I resemble that remark........
Think of the colors of our flag:
read, wight & blew.....
Paul, There is a lot of discussion on this forum thread about who hit who, please don't let it throw you, these guys are knowledgeable in many ways, I hope somewhere in this thread you got your answer. For me, a picture is worth a thousand words, when a car is presented the way that 1909 Tourabout is, it is more likely to sell at or close to that asking price. When I see pictures of a black car in a cave, the first thing I wonder is what is he hiding, when in fact the presenter is either not knowledgeable or too lazy to put forth the effort needed to properly advertise their product. You came here seeking answers to your questions, I hope that query what fruitful. These are a great bunch of guys with many diverse interests and one common one, Model Ts. If you think this thread was interesting, ask about waterpumps...or oil...
I do appreciate the well educated and articulate members of this forum. However I hope there will always be a place for we poor fools who were learning things out in the garage when we should have been doing our homework. There is much to gain from everyone with a model T interest. Fuzzy photos, lack of knowledge and poor punctuation should not be a reason not to contribute. I think we have all learned something here.
We did in fact learn something, Richard. The essence of thread drift :-)
What's the best oil to use in a doctor's coupe?
The Dr. is out playing golf, ask the nurse practitioner. (Vaseline for lubing the timer)
What trend drift?
Castor Oil ?
Yes, I think there is a trend for some threads to drift, Bob :-)
Beat me to it Bob.
I hope nobody was offended by what I said yesterday. I certainly wasn't trying to be critical, funny, insulting, or anything else. I was just trying to say that we should try to do the best we can when posting, and of course, we all make mistakes, typos, etc., and I'm one of the worst, especially in the area of punctuation. And I realize that there are those that have not been blessed with a complete or thorough (if those are the right words) education. And I respect each and every post in this forum, no matter how well or how poorly expressed, if,.....it was written "for the good of the hobby". This forum has taught me things that I never would have learned otherwise. I just think that writing in such a way as to assume everyone in the world can "read between the lines" when we are vague and lazy in our writing, and when we use abbreviations, slang (American) terms and nuances and innuendos (sp?), and God forbid,....texting acronyms, that even some Americans would not understand, and would certainly not be understood in many non-English speaking countries. Again, not trying to be a "wise guy" but what follows in my post here is an example of what I think should be avoided if possible:
and by the way i know i should have used proper paragraphs in this much too wordy off-topic epistle as it would have been much easier to read and of course this is just an example of some of the many mistakes i make even tho' i've been taught better and to use proper english spelling punctuation and sentence structure and complete sentences and avoid slang terms that only us american folks can relate to and as a matter of fact there are slang expressions used in various parts of our own lower 48 states that are only understood locally and even cause us confusion let alone some poor fellow in some non english speaking country to figure it out and i hope this stupid example does not upset of offend anybody as i'm just trying to demonstrate by way of example what i'm talking about and if anybody has bothered to read my nonsense here and is offended, well, (oops, used punctuation in my bad example here) well if it pi--ed you off well sorry and have a good day.....harold
Well said Harold.
I would still like to see a picture of the engine to know what it is that is being offered for sale.
Harold, your last paragraph lacks scrambled syntax and creative spelling.
Using the best writing you can manage is a courtesy to your readers and a service to yourself.
Is that the world's record for a run-on sentence??
I've seen some long ones, but don't think any nearly that long!!
I is on yer sied!
That's real cute.
And David too.
Thanks guys, for putting up with me on this,.....David,.....I'm sure you realize that I was just trying to demonstrate the way I see someone write once in awhile,.....and if that's the best they can do, I have no problem with that. All I was trying to say is that if a person CAN do better than that, they should, like Steve Jelf said,.....harold