1914-1916 Switch Assembly...

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: 1914-1916 Switch Assembly...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 07:42 pm:

A wee bit of help here would be appreciated...From the switch I had pictures of this is how it went together...but I'm sure there are other versions of this assembly.



If anybody knows what or by whom those differing assemblies were made, I'd appreciate the information. And of course I'll make them too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 08:27 pm:

The only thing I see is the three flat head machine screws mounting the switch to coil box,had low profile nuts on inside of box.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 08:34 pm:

The image of the front plate looks like the reproduction ones. The originals looked like that but were all brass with no black painted background. I think the lettering was somewhat thinner on the originals also. The same plate was used in 1913 after the change to the metal coil box and newer style coils. It was used through part of 1916 and then a similar steel plate with back oxidized finish was substituted for the brass plate. Great drawing Martin! Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 08:52 pm:

Jack, the box I saw had the nuts on the outside already as part of the box. Do you have any pictures of these low profile nuts on the inside of the box?

Dennis, they were really all brass? I thought that the black had just worn off, hmmm...ok I can do that. And then later in 1916 there was a steel plate did the part number change?

Does anybody know part numbers for the contacts? Nobody seems to be making those.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 09:34 pm:

All the boxes I have,have a recessed area where those mounting screws go.They used a nut very much like the ones you are showing for the electrical contacts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:51 pm:

Hi Martin,

In regard to the brass front data plate, I checked all of my several 14-17 coil boxes that have the molded rubber housing. All the brass plates are plain brass with no signs of any residue of paint. Also the illustration in my 1915 parts book shows a bright brass plate. All of the photos I've seen on the forum also show the original plate as plain brass (and the repop as you illustrated it; I bought one of those also). 4730 is the correct part number. I don't think that changed when the steel plate came out in 1916 as I have a 1917 parts list that still shows 4730 as the number. After that the new switch assembly came out that had a 3 dimensional stamped cover that fit onto a flat back plate that had all the contacts on it. Those were used on non starter cars (at least some of them into the 20's).

The one steel data plate I have has a light rust coat. They had the lettering stamped into the steel and were "raven finished" (black oxide) and didn't resist corrosion as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 10:58 pm:

Oh,

One other thing. You show the moveable contact (the part that turns with the key) as 4728. That number in the parts book actually refers to the complete switch assembly less front plate and key. None of the internal parts including all the contacts show as separately orderable in the parts book. I guess if you broke something you ordered the complete switch body. That might be because the hard rubber case was more fragile than the internal pieces and broke most often.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 27, 2014 - 11:50 pm:

Apparently there were different versions of this switch. Maybe somebody can tell me what I have here.


It came with no plate at all, so I put the currently available reproduction plate on it.

The switch is mounted on a steel backing plate that attaches to the box with three little machine screws held by thin nuts inside the box.







The steel cover attaches to three posts on the back plate with machine screws that also hold the data plate.


My cover came with some extra filler material.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 12:13 am:

Martin-
Very nice work.

The bakelite switch was used up to about 1917. In either late '16 or '17 the cover plate was made of black steel. Maybe it was a raven finish, I don't remember for sure. Then I believe later in '17 or early '18 came the stamped cover that Steve showed. It is the same type that is on my non-electric 1919. The cover on that type has BAT OFF and MAG stamped into it and does not use the separate cover like is on Steve's car.

On the back side of the bakelite switch is a groove for a skinny piece of weather strip material. Think of a piece of white insulation that had been stripped off of a piece of wire. It goes all the way around the upper part, but not across the bottom. (That weather strip piece is on the back of the KW bakelite switches, too.)

On the back of the later stamped switch is a piece of fiber insulator with notched where the mounting screws are.

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 12:41 am:

Looks like I need to put a 1915 switch on my shopping list now that I know what to look for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 01:02 am:

Yes Steve, your switch is in reality from about late '17 until maybe late '22. There is a LOT of bad information out there. I have to be careful to not continue spreading some of it because a lot of it is the stuff I was told years ago by people that had been in the hobby before me. A LOT of 1915s have the switch like yours because forty years ago, most people restoring '15s thought they were correct.
The fact is, that the earlier bakelite switches were so prone to breakage, many of the cars still being driven after ten years had the switches replaced by the better later switch. I have a very original '13/'14 coil box with the later switch on it that looks like it has been on there forever. I need to find the right switch for it (just in case I manage to get a '14).
I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you keep that switch on your runabout? You will be among the majority of '15s with the wrong switch.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 02:07 am:

You guys are going and confusing me :-):-)

Last time I had one apart, the guts were all molded...things slid into places and the cover went and dressed everything off...

So...what year was that?? And where did this brass only, no black background cover come from? Not a challenge, really curious as in my stash I have a brass stamped one, that is in-filled and where the infill is like a black cloisonné enamel...and that stash box has been untouched and un-rummaged since oh about 1960-ish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 02:09 am:

Steve,

Lang's catalog shows reproduction 15-17 coil box switch housings and also possibly used switches (they say to call). Quite spendy stuff but It's really hard to find a switch separately without having to buy the whole coil box. Also do you have the one piece coil box top with the rounded corners as used in 15-16? If not a complete coil box might be less expensive that buying separate pieces. Hope this helps a bit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 02:37 am:

This is the one that Steve has, I've labeled it as 1914-1922, but I'm not sure that's correct



If you guys happen to know when this particular one was used I'd appreciate it.

As for the brass and steel plates, I'll make and add them too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 02:49 am:

Damn! I forgot the contact screws and the different switch lever...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Henrichs on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 02:57 am:

Hi Martin,

This is the switch that that replaced the 1915-16 hard rubber housing switch. The time period it was used is 1917-late 1922. It does not use the 4730 data plate (that repro plate was added to Steve's switch). The cover you drew right behind the 4730 plate is correct. It was stamped steel and had the Bat/Mag etc. lettering stamped into the metal. The cover was painted black. You have the part numbers correct. This switch used the 50XX series; the earlier 15-16 used the 47XX series parts numbers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 03:11 am:

Keep up the good work Mat. !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 06:50 am:

Dennis, ok, I will make that change, thank you...now onto the earlier than these switches, lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:07 am:

Martin: Your last two illustrations are incorrect. There is no plate, only the cover. BTW, we make the correct 14-16 switch bodies, and they come with the white rubber insert for them. They are available from Langs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 11:21 am:

The hard rubber switch housing was used at least through the end of the 1917 model year (through July 1917).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 05:07 pm:

If the printing is stamped onto the cover and the cover is black...how do you see what the printing says? Or do you see it at all? Was any of the printing painted white at least? Like the "MAG.", "OFF" and "BAT."?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:12 pm:

Ok, is this what the 1917-1922 switch would look like?



Or is there any of that lettering "AUTO SYNCHRON'" and "SPARK COIL"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:54 pm:

The only lettering would be the mag off bat and maybe a small flatten diamond shaped stamp of the manufacture (you can see it just under the key slot). Not sure about the Ford at the top. See Eric Johnson's post
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/121264.html
I think the flat steel and the full cover type were stamped the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 08:14 pm:

Mark, I can see the ford on the top, and the diamond, but what was it between? Mag and Bat are at the bottom and I'm assuming that Off was in the middle. I also looks like there is some writing to either side where the Auto and Spark were in 1914-16 switch plates.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 08:17 pm:

Here is a 1918-1922-ish switch cover:


Here is the black steel cover on the bakelite switch 1916-1917 ish:


another:



one more:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 09:13 pm:

Ok, here's the revised 1914 thru 1917 Switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:15 pm:

cover plates
Here's two examples. I believe the diamond indicated manufacture by Briggs. Notice the Ford script is slightly different between these two.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 01:43 am:

David, this is for the 1918 - 1922 switch right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 02:08 am:

No the flat black steel cover is for 1916-1917 (18?) only


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 02:44 am:

Ok, sooo what was on the 1919 to 1922? I know my 22 has this one, but then I've also got a dash too.



I thought all the non electric starter cars and or trucks had one of these.



or this one



Is there another one I'm missing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ake Osterdahl on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 02:50 am:

Martin
... you do a great documentation for this hobby, a great tribute to you.
One question: which application data are you working with?

Ake


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 03:08 am:

Depending on how thorough you want to be...there was also a 4730 that did not have the word 'OFF' on it...it applied to the late '16's onward.

And your switch assembly 19-25 is the dash for an electrified car. When the car had a dash...and it was also a non-starter car from I think 22 on...it had a blanking plate on the ammeter and a reactor block on the back of it (to keep the mag headlights from blowing out on overvoltage).

Just go with consensus :-) I don't think anyone can exactly agree what really happened from 19-22 in proper sequence anyway :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 03:08 am:

Ake, hmmm, not sure what you're asking by "application data"? If you mean which program I'm using, it's Corel Draw. Otherwise I'm trying to use Ford part numbers, although when I started I was using both Snyder's and Lang's, only because I had their catalogs handy, lol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 03:35 am:

George, do you have any pictures of that set up? I would dearly like to see one of those, if only to complete my reference...of course I plan on doing all the early cars switches too and I think I've still got to do the 26-27's as well.

As you may remember I started with my own car originally. When I did the headlights I got the goofy idea to include 1915's. I then found that they were different, which lead to the differences between 26 and 27 too. I then drew the Corcoran 11...now I find there's an E&J, John Brown and Victor...and I'm going to draw them too, in the hopes that somebody will find them useful. :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 04:10 am:

Martin,

A picture is worth....

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86464.html?1238510621


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 04:33 am:

yet another variant........

Magneto switch on box...lights lamps off of steering column

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/44547.html?1199559686

Are we having fun yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:56 am:

Here is one on Tbay with some good pics.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Original-Model-T-Ford-Coil-Box-Speedster-Rat-Hot-Rod-/161 233783988?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item258a484cb4&vxp=mtr&_uh b=1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 11:07 am:

Martin:

The 1918 -22 stamped cover does not use the 4730 face plate.

The face plate is used only with the hard rubber housings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 11:08 am:

Martin: You still are not getting it. Look at the photo Keith posted. It is a cover, not a plate! Also the photo that David posted is the correct late 16-17 plate used in the bakelite switch bodies, but is also a replacement for the 14-17's, and is made of steel, not brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 04:28 pm:

Sorry guys, I haven't been on line to note all this discussion & questions.
Yes Martin, the blued metal cover PLATE is for the '16-17 only, and replaced the brass stamped plate. Cheaper part, more durable too (except for rust!). One of those was found under a stamped brass plate--figure someone "dolled up" their ride by adding the brass plate (If I were younger, I'd say "pimped their ride!"); and the result, years later was finding the steel one in good shape (a rarity nowadays)!! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:32 pm:

George, what holds that to the cover plate, four screws in the corners or one screw in the middle?

Dave, thank you I see how that attaches to the box now. :-)

Erik, ok, sooo that's when the cover has all the stamped letters on it right? Ok I'll make that change.

Larry, ok, the mist is starting to clear before my eyes here, lol. The hard rubber housing gets the plate and the board to the box gets the cover with no plate...right? You know, I only picked the switch as a slight jaunt from all my B and B-1 carburetor work I'm doing for Jim Mahaffey (still got a ton more to do too)...didn't figure it'd be this complicated, lol.

David, great find! Soooo, they used the stamped brass plate on '14-15 and this plate on the '16-17's then went to the one like Steve has on his car (board mounted to the box) with the cover right, and the words were stamped onto it? And this covers from '18-22ish right? Oh boy, this has been quite the study, further proof that the fun never quits! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 07:47 pm:

By George, I think he's got it!

And since the Rain in Spain Stays Mainly In The Plane, I'm taking a boat if I go to Spain!!
:-)
David,
PS, Yes, that was a great surprise find (especially so since my car is a '16)!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, March 01, 2014 - 09:11 pm:

Ok, here's the re-re-revised drawings...






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