OT - Hupmobile 20 - Hole in water jacket at exhaust outlet

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2014: OT - Hupmobile 20 - Hole in water jacket at exhaust outlet
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Winter on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 12:54 am:

Hi All,

As a an ex-Model T owner, I thought I would post my problem here and see if I can get any solutions (maybe I should have stuck with the T!)

I am reassembling a 1911 Hupmobile Model 20. After experiencing a leak in the combustion chamber (now repaired) and leaks around the studs in Block No. 2 (Cylinders 3 & 4) I blanked off the side water inlet and filled the block up with water. After a while, I noticed a very slight weep of water developing in the outlet port of No. 4 exhaust. A bit of prodding with the sharp end of a needle file and soon I had a gush. More prodding and now I have hole around half an inch long x a quarter of an inch wide...See attached pic. At least it is somewhat accessible.

I know if it was Model T, I would probably just be looking for a new block but this not so much of an option for a Hup 20.

So, short of a new block, I am after some suggestions as to how to repair. Ideas contemplated so far:
1. Try and fill with a high temp epoxy as it is
2. Angle the block with the corner the hole is in down and fill that corner with some filling agent such as the cement they use in drag racing engine blocks (or some such product)
3. Tap a bolt up through the bottom of the water jacket so the end of the bolt draws up just beneath the hole to provide some positive reinforcement for some sort of epoxy
4. "Glue" a patch over the hole with epoxy and then cover the patch with more epoxy (not so keen on that idea as if this fails, the loss of water may be very quick and fatal to the engine)

Any other suggestions??? Has anyone had a similar problem on a Hup, Model T or other old car?

Regards to all,

Andrew.


Hup Model 20 block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 03:39 am:

It can be repaired! All you have to do is find the miracle-worker cast-iron welder to do it.

To get an idea what is involved, check out this thread about a boat engine to see how it can be done. The link is a few years old, and covers some time from start to finish. I just, checked, it is still there.

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/1/91556.html

I do NOT know any of these people. I do NOT know if they are available to do such work or not. They do seem to know what they are doing and how to repair such things the right way. Sadly, I also do not know anybody that I can recommend. The fellow I do know that was very good, has somehow gone bad. I don't know just why. But I cannot recommend him anymore.
Hopefully, someone here can recommend someone still doing such welding and doing it right.
They would probably have to cut an area out of the water jacket to work in, then weld the water jacket back into place. Hopefully, this is an anomaly, and not a sign of more troubles around other ports.
I have been welding my own junk for five decades and done a fair amount of difficult tricky welding. Some of it looks pretty ugly by the time I am done with it. I have done some set up and welding cast-iron with some encouraging success. However, I am not anywhere near ready to consider trying something like that. But I know it CAN be done.

Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 04:37 am:

Glowing exhaust manifolds in the dark is a common sight, so exhaust ports tends to get really hot. I don't think epoxi can stand that kind of heat. Like Wayne I'm thinking some kind of welding since it's hard to get at with metal stitching. Maybe brazing can stand the heat if you never run it too much retarded?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth from NC on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:15 am:

Wayne - the man in the post that you linked is a miracle worker. That 'engine' they fixed was total junk to me. When I saw the first pictures I thought "They fixed THAT?"

Andrew - I think the biggest challenge would be getting this gentleman to take your little side project on. And make no mistake - if you check out the thread and all the pictures from Wayne's post - that little hole in your block would be childs play for this guy.

I don't know how he figured out or learned to do what he's doing but it's incredible. He's an artist. I sincerely hope he has a pupil he's imparting this ridiculous ability to. I'm half tempted to go lay at his feet and beg to be taught just so that the knowledge doesn't die out with him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Greenlees on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 07:46 am:

It could be welded in an oven but a patch brazed over it would work just fine. I have seen a copper penny soldered over a similar problem in an exhaust port with high temp solder that worked fine for years. The reason is, being water cooled the port does not get that hot. A manifold will get very hot as it is only air-cooled (a "T" will glow red hot when run hard), but not the port as long as there is coolant in the system.

Pre-heat the block and braze it and you will be able to do the whole job at cooler overall temperatures that will not warp the rest of the block as will pre-heating in an oven to over 1000 degrees, as is needed for successful welding will.

Do not try to have it arc welded as it is rarely successful.

It could be welded as shown in the link that Wayne posted and be done successfully. The problem with this method is that generally a block or head will end up suffering some warpage and much if it may need to be re-machined.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 08:24 am:

Brazing is the solution...clean to bare metal as much as possible. Preheat the area to some reasonable degree and braze it using a flux coated rod. Just carefully puddle the braze material starting from the back (innermost area).
Make sure that the port is open so that the flame can flow easily through.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:22 am:

When you are grinding down to bare metal to braze the hole do not use emery based grinding stones, use carbide. The emery will embed in the cast and keep the brass from the rod from adhering and will cause lots of "pops" while you are brazing. Also, there are different alloys of brazing rod. I would think using one of the alloys with higher tin content would help with adhesion and the higher melting point would be good since it will be in an exhaust port. I'd probably take it to some welder than knew what he was doing rather than attempting it myself.

Another solution is to just take it to a machine shop, have the hole bored and a sleeve pressed in. I can't really see from the photo where the valve is but no more complex than the block appears to be it could probably be sleeved and the port opened in the sleeve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Friday, February 28, 2014 - 10:44 am:

Hi, I bought a 34 4 cylinder at a swap meet. It had 1.75 valves in it and was ported way out. I took it to Valley Head Service in Northridge California for new hard seats and a valve job. Well the ports had been opened up a little to much and some of the old seats were into the water jacket. Larry brazed up the thin spots and put in the new seats. Very nice job by a master. All is well now and I have large valves and ports. Welding cast iron is a joke. the weld comes out nice but you will have stress in the block along side the weld and it WILL crack. Why fight cast iron? Any good welder will tell you yes I can weld it but its going to crack. Scott


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration